John Allard

[Richview]

To be honest little makes sense with John Allard did he lie about his age or indeed his name. The man used so many aliases it is near impossible to be certain. However having read the book about the London underworld of which he was part that did confirm my theory that he was born in Belper 1870 to a single mother.

The problem with this family is the changing of names to suit, your a descendant of William I assume he changed his name just to add to the confusion.

I have used various finding aids oddly enough Trove gave a full account of the murder the rest is in the British newspaper archives , the jail court papers are public record on FindMyPast.

I am certain of the marriage to Mary Ann O'Hara and certain that son William married Doris Hill and they had 3 daughters and 1 son.

R

 

[Richview]

Just checked his age on the Court papers 1912 he was 42.
R

[High hall]

Thanks for the info, you are correct about the marriages to Mary Ann and Doris, John and Mary Ann were my Gt grandparents  and William was my Grandfather. I knew that both of them had been involved with the betting world. William sometimes took my Mother with him when he went away to the races. When I first investigated John Allard and his criminal activities I was not sure he and my Gt Grandfather were one and the same. William's children were certainly not fully aware of either their Grandfathers or their Father's past and my Grandmother never revealed it.

[Richview]

John on release from jail lived with Doris and William and Lillian. I can be 100% certain that they are the same family as the newspaper reports link the addresses.
It is difficult when people use an alias but in some respects can be an advantage with family research if you are lucky enough to find court records they are all listed. John was fortunate the jury were swayed to the lesser charge of manslaughter I think we can guess why, it was premeditated murder and there can be no doubt that he would have faced the death sentence. Henry "John" Allard there is very little for him it's possible he married twice although I can only find the marriage to Phyllis Snape nee Arkle.

Doris it's difficult to follow her family as her mother was a relatively young widow.

R

[High hall]

I can confirm that it is the same family especially as John went to live with William Doris and Lillian. Lillian was born in 1923 so I assume this was after he was sentenced for his part in the Birmingham Boys fracas after the Epsom Races . Another relative linked John with Joseph and Lydia Allard but they were unable to confirm John's birth. Interestingly Lydia Allard nee Wragg was born in Handley Derbyshire.
Henry John Allard ,John's son lived with a woman called Lena (they were never married)they had a daughter of the same name. According to my late Mother they would leave Lena with John and Mary Ann and then travel around selling things, she also thought the older Lena may have been a Romany. Lena passed away and eventually Henry (Harry) married Phyllis Snape. The family lost touch with the Allard  side of the family after my Grandfathers death in 1936.

[Richview]

John was sentenced to 12 months for Larceny to the person at Worcs 1928 , Liberation was the 27 Feb 1929 his address 19 Lower Essex Street.

Henry Allard's birth was registered 1902 he was known as John Jr - 1939 his occupation was a lorry driver and mechanic. He had two children with Selina/Lena Stevens John Henry 1924 and Lena Susie 1928. His brother William was also a driver at the time of his death in 1936. It would appear from the obituary for Mary Ann that John and Lena lived with her.

Alan Snape added a number of photographs for John Desmond to his tree on Ancestry which may be of interest to you.

I see no connection to John Allard with Joseph & Lydia - looking at his numerous convictions it looks as if he was indeed born 1870.

R

[High hall]

I think you are right about no connection with Joseph and Lydia, I think we have been barking up the wrong tree LOL. John Desmond was my uncle, he was only four when his Father passed away, from the info you have given I think I can see why John snr's Grandchildren were told that Grandad had gone to Ireland to visit. My Mother was very attached to her Grandfather and there was nothing in family memories to link him with violence etc. When he died my Mother said there were a lot of smart men in bowler hats at the funeral she thought they were something to do with the council !! They were certainly to do with something but I don't think it was the council.
It just shows that when you start to look at your family tree you have to be prepared for anything.

[Richview]

Over the years I have researched many families both in the UK and overseas, the only way is to start  with a blank canvas.
I did read about the gang wars and violence prior to researching John Allard it was later that I learnt of his connection to Billy Kember.

John was a career criminal from an early age I would assume as records are released more of his past will come to light.

At some point a tree will be released on Ancestry.com, to complete would require a visit to the archives, police museum and cemetery that may  happen next year.

The research has been more than interesting and rather shocking.

R   

[High hall]

Shocking indeed, thank you for all the info. I am hoping to have access to photographs when the police museum is eventually open to the public, I suppose a mugshot would be better than none at all.My Grandfather William is buried at Brandwood End, I would stay with my Grandmother every week end as a small child and would frequently go with her to the cemetery to tend his grave. It had no memorial stone she could not afford one. Will keep an eye on Ancestry. Looks like I will have to re do the tree.
So, Who were you John Allard ?