What happened to Southernwood Place near Kinloch Street Carnoustie

[angusg]

I was looking at a 1936 Wedding but cannot fined the street in the maps or on Google.

Jessie Bradford BEATTIE and her sister Agnes Jan Bradford BEATTIE were living there when Jessie married John PETRIE  at the Drill Hall, Carnoustie. 

Any Ideas?

[Forfarian]

The 1935 valuation roll (on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk) lists seven tenants in Southernwood Place, south side of Kinloch Street, Carnoustie. George Beattie is listed twice. All of them are listed as 'house and garden' so it wasn't a single block with flats. So I would expect it to a short row of six or seven houses along one section of Kinloch Street.

Six houses and gardens with tenants are listed in the 1925 valuation roll, but Southernwood Place is not listed in 1920 or earlier. So it might be reasonable to suppose that Southernwood Place was built in the 1920s.

The online maps library at https://maps.nls.uk/index.html has a series of town plans of Carnoustie spanning the 1920s and indeed earlier and later. None of the ones I looked at names Southernwood Place.

However if I compare the 1910 and 1925 plans, I don't see any difference between the built-up parts of the south side of Kinloch Street. So if Southernwood Place was built in the 1920s, it must have replaced an earlier row of houses, or maybe it was an earlier terrace renamed.

I took a virtual 'walk' along Kinloch Street looking at the houses on the south side, but without conspicuous success. There were no terraces of obviously early 20th century houses. Quite a lot of 19th century ones, and even more post-war council housing.

My guess is that Southernwood Place was demolished and the site redeveloped by the Town Council. But that is just a guess!

So I conclude that to find out about Southernwood Place, and what happened to it, you would need to consult the archives of Carnoustie Town Council. These are in the care of Angus Archives http://archive.angus.gov.uk/historyaa/archives/ so I suggest contacting them and asking them about it.

[stanmapstone]

There is a death notice for a Jemima Kidd,  Southernwood Place Kinloch Street, Carnoustie in the "Arbroath Herald and Advertiser for the Montrose Burghs" - Thursday 28 February 1901.

There is an advert in the Dundee Courier - Tuesday 20 July 1954 for the sale of a Churchill pram with canopy, c/o Brown, Southernwood Place, Kinlooh Street, Carnoustie.

Stan

[Forfarian]

Interesting. That certainly rules out the place being built in the 1920s. I wonder why Southernwood Place isn't listed in the 1905 valuation roll, then?

.... It's called Southerwood in 1915 and 1920. The proprietor in 1915 is Elizabeth Kidd and there are tenant occupiers called Agnes High, William Mathers, Jean Robertson and Maria Smith.

In 1905 Elizabeth Kidd is listed as proprietor of a house and garden on the south side of Kinloch Street, and Agnes High, Jean Robertson and Maria Smith are listed as tenants.

In 1895 Elizabeth Kidd is listed as proprietor of a house and garden in Kinloch Street. Frank Robertson and Maria Smith are tenants in Kinloch Street.

In 1885 John Rea Kidd is listed as proprietor of a house and garden in Kinloch Street Feus. John Rae Kidd died in Carnoustie in 1889, aged 77.

In 1875 William Kidd is listed as proprietor of a house and garden in Kinloch Street Feus. However I cannot at the moment reconcile the census indexes with the names in the VRs.

Elizabeth Kidd, other surname Rait, aged 90, died in the parish of Barry in 1928. I wonder if her death certificate says she resided at Souther(n)wood Place?

[isobelw]

Some newspaper reports in BNA say it is Kinloch Street and some say Golf Street. Mention in one report of a two storey building with an adjacent single storey building.
Isobel

[Forfarian]

Having dug out my CD-ROMs of the 1881 census, I tried following the enumerator about to see if that might shed any light on Souther(n)wood Place.

Unfortunately I could not easily relate any of the known occupants of Souther(n)wood place to the 1881 census. There are no likely William and/or Elizabeth Kidds.

Maria Smith, other surname Milne, aged 71, died in Barry in 1921. However in 1881 she and her family were in the parish of Mains, so that's no help.

Agnes High doesn't help either. She died unmarried in 1943, aged 81. In 1881 she was with her family in Victoria Street in Carnoustie.

[isobelw]

This is from 1929. It mentions further down the page that Barbara had resided with her mother until the mother’s death. There was also an earlier report in 1920 of a court case which mentions Barbara, her sister and her mother Elizabeth and the address given is Southernwood Place. Could it be the large white building on the corner of Golf Street and Kinloch Street?

[Forfarian]

1881 Census: West Haven Farm Cottage, Panbride
James Kidd, 27, farm servant, born Arbirlot
Margaret Scott, Wife, 22, born Dundee
Mary Kidd, daughter 1, born Monifieth
John Kidd, brother, 29, general labourer, born St Vigeans
James Kidd, head, 28, agricultural labourer, born Barry
Elizabeth Raitt, wife, 40, born Panbride
Barbara Kidd, daughter, 10, born Barry
Jemmina Kidd, daughter, 8 born Panbride
James Kidd, son, 4, born Panbride
Elizabeth Kidd, daughter, 1, born Panbride
all listed in the LDS CD-ROM as one household. You'd need to look at the original to see if they are actually recorded as two separate households, as seems likely.

In Kinloch Street, Barry (i.e. Carnoustie) in 1881
John R Kydd, 69, retired salmon fisher, born Barry
Barbara Kydd, wife, 69, born Barry

I am a bit dubious about the age given for James Kidd. James Kidd and Elizabeth T Raitt were married in Panbride in 1868. If he was 28 in 1881, that means that he was only at most 16 when he married. It is almost unheard of for an agricultural labourer to marry at only 16.

So I couldn't resist a look at that 1868 marriage. Sure enough, it's James Kidd, aged 25, farm servant, son of John Rae Kydd, linen weaver and Barbara Mitchell. James was actually born on 5 February 1843, so he was 38, not 28, on the day of the 1881 census.

Anyway the point of all this is that John R Kydd, in Kinloch Street in 1881, is the father-in-law of Elizabeth Raitt or Kidd, and the grandfather of Barbara Kidd, who died in the fire at Souther(n)wood Place.

Kinloch Street is all enumerated in Enumeration Districts 2 and 4 in 1881. John R Kydd is in ED4. This ED includes Brown Street, Lower Kinloch Street, Burnside, Dundee Street, West Path and Braefoot (though not necessarily all of any of those streets), plus Agra Bank House, Carnoustie House and Lochead Farm.

John R Kydd's is almost the last household enumerated in a longish list of houses in Kinloch Street. There is just one household listed between his and Lower Kinloch Street, and there are no listings of households in Golf Street in Barry in 1881. So I think that this supports the idea that Southernwood Place must have been on the corner of Kinloch Street and Golf Street.

Noting that the article says that Barbara Kidd had let a two-storey house for August, and moved into a single-storey one, and that the cream-coloured two-storey house with attached single-storey cottage is older than late 19th century, I think the answer to your question is thst Southernwood Place is still there, but the name has been lost.

What isn't answered is what happened to the five other houses in Souther(n)wood Place listed as tenanted in the 1935 valuation roll. Looking at Google Streetmap, I see that just east of the cream two-storey house single-storey house is a terrace of single-storey late 20th century houses. I think you may find that these stand where the home of your Beattie family stood.

They might possibly have been in flats in the white building right on the corner of Golf Street, but the description of the tenanted dwellings as 'house and garden' suggests not.
 

[Liviani]

I was looking at a 1936 Wedding but cannot fined the street in the maps or on Google.

Jessie Bradford BEATTIE and her sister Agnes Jan Bradford BEATTIE were living there when Jessie married John PETRIE  at the Drill Hall, Carnoustie. 

Any Ideas?

Hi, Agnes Jane Beattie m.s. Bradford was my great-grandmother. She died in 1938 at Southernwood Place, Kinloch Street, Carnoustie.

I believe the buildings themselves are still there and I'll explain why.

I checked NLS maps and went to "Scotland, Town Plans" and selected Carnoustie. The series of buildings either side of the junction of Golf Street/Kinloch Street remain consistent throughout all of these available town plans on NLS maps. They are dated between 1909 and 1939. I've attached a snip of the area in question. Throughout all of these town plans, the blank spaces at the immediate left and right of these buildings remain empty. The space on the left is currently a bowling club.

In the "Broughty Ferry Guide and Advertiser" on the 8th September 1945 there is someone looking for a long let house or flat. Their current address is noted as being "Southernwood Place.... next Bowling Green".  So this indicates that Southernwood Place is the series of buildings right next to the Bowling Green. You will see this on Google Street View. I believe it includes the small bungalows and the larger second story buildings all attached in one line.

I will try and find out from my immediate family as my maternal side are all natives of Carnoustie and are still there, though my great-grandmother died before my mother was born and I believe the Beatties moved away from there perhaps after Agnes Jane died. I know some ended up a short distance away at Elm Cottage in Camus Street.

We have spoken on other channels before angusg, so feel free to contact me again if you'd like to know more.

EDIT: If you notice from Google Street View, you'll notice this series of buildings don't have any door access from Kinloch Street. The access appears to be from a "lane" that runs along the back of the properties. This is the probably where the "place" comes from in Southernwood Place. I checked the 1935 Valuation Rolls (the originals) and there are 5 separate residents living in Southernwood Place. This matches up with how the properties appear today as 5 separate residences (at least structurally). My great-grandfather George Beattie (Agnes Bradford's husband) was living there and was also renting some land at Southernwood Place. Directly underneath the listings for Southernwood Place is the Bowling Green which belonged to Carnoustie Town Council. So it's most certainly the line of buildings extending from the bowling green to Golf Street.

So in the attached picture within the red circled area. Southernwood Place is the group of buildings on the left . Not the group on the right within this circle.