First time researching Irish Family History - RYAN, Waterford

[stannarp]

Thanks Heywood,

The bit about John Bleach having been a private is interesting, and resonates with a piece of oral history that got passed down to my grandmother and her sisters (the g-granddaughter of Margaret Ryan); that Margaret Bennett / Bleach / Ryan and her husband came to South Africa as a result of the Xhosa Wars.

So there may be an element of fact, but regarding her first husband, not her second.  It seems that John Bleach (Margaret Ryan's first husband) died in Queenstown sometime before 1865, and she married Jonathan Bennett (my own ancestor).

Your comment about the regiment is useful - I think it was 85th, based on below, and your newspaper snippets; but in South Africa possibly also the Cape Mounted Rifles (https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk) has a John Bleach in the right timeframe in both; it is viable that they could be the same person, although the John Bleach in the 2nd is a puzzle:

John    Bleach                          1853    Cape Mounted Rifles    
John    Bleach    2441    Private    1851    85th (Bucks Volunteers) The King's...    
John    Bleach    2038    Private    1851    2nd (The Queen's Royal) Regiment...    

Neither 85th nor 2nd seem to have served in Ireland at the right time, but I may be looking in all the wrong places.

Hmmmm, re-reading this, and something about the 2nd on Wikipedia (source of all knowledge) caught my eye ... some of them were the regiment on the HMS Birkenhead when she famously went down with 'women and children to the lifeboats first' ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen%27s_Royal_Regiment_(West_Surrey)#The_Victorian_era

Not knowing much about UK military history (so far only one ancestor of mine was in the UK military, and he was honourably discharged for being kicked in the groin by a horse ... impressive that he lived to produce offspring ), I'm interested that a private could have travelled with his wife, but I suppose the fact that she arrived here does indicate that.

The certificate I will definitely look into, with finding a Ryan in Ireland being akin to a needle in a haystack, I think that will be my only option.  I was hoping for PR's which often give useful information as well, but the RC records for Scarborough seem to be thin on the ground; although I'll carry on looking.

Thanks again for the interesting info...

Regards,

Patricia

[Maiden Stone]

 I'm interested that a private could have travelled with his wife, but I suppose the fact that she arrived here does indicate that.

 I was hoping for PR's which often give useful information as well, but the RC records for Scarborough seem to be thin on the ground; although I'll carry on looking

A small number of privates were accompanied by wives. I think a man who wanted to take his wife entered his name in a lottery.

St. Peter R.C. Church, Scarborough existed in 1850s. Registers, visitation books & miscellaneous documents 1783-1989 are at Middlesborough Diocesan Archives. Contact by letter. Contact info on National Archives website.

20thC registers of St. Edward, Scarborough are held privately - details diocesan archives.
Information from National Archives online catalogue.
discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/NI3996408

There are other R.C. churches near Scarborough; I don't know when they date from; no dates on GENUKI.

[stannarp]

Thanks Maiden Stone, the info about the lottery is interesting, I will follow up on that; also the RC Church Records - turns out this is also my first time researching family history with RC ties, so another small learning curve here...

Many firsts, Ireland, military wives, RC records   

[heywood]

Here is John, I think in 1851 2268/611/23

John Bleach b 1825 Havant, Hampshire

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGYQ-TKH

Earlier in the census pages, on page 4, the officers are shown as 85th Light Infantry. They are at Fulwood Barracks, Preston, Lancashire. Is this is a different regiment though to 85th Bucks?

Later the same year, he marries Margaret in Scarborough.

I have posted this now on your other thread as you have updated that one.
There is also a birth -Sarah Ann Bleach mmn Ryan b 1853 mmn Ryan

[stannarp]

Hi Heywood,

Thanks for that - I used the pay per view on Genes Reunited for the page he appears on, but hadn't downloaded the other pages for Fulwood Barracks.

He is a bit of a puzzle, as I am almost 100% sure he was in the 85th - not sure about the regimental names.

However, my uncle, who is also looking into this for the military side is also sure it is him in the 2nd, as the we cannot find the 85th in the 8th Xhosa War in South Africa, and we have good reason to know they definitely came to South Africa  ; and also that it is him in the Cape Mounted Rifles in the same decade.

I'll post to the military board about how someone could move between units so regularly, as I was under the impression that soldiers stuck within their regiments, and didn't have much choice about it.

Thanks for the birth info, I don't have a Sarah Ann on the death notice for her in 1901. I've got a Mary Ann Bleach (just an estimated date of birth of about 1857 give or take about 5 years) and a George Bleach, fairly certain date of birth in Queenstown in 1858 (from his death notice). Given high infant mortality rates and their mobile lifestyle at the time she could possibly have died young, I will look into that.

Regards,

Patricia

[nowel]

Hello

 From Waterford County Museum -
The 85th Regt. of Foot (now Shropshire Light Infantry) were in Dungarvan, Co. Waterford at least between Aug 1849 and Jan 1850 -  https://tinyurl.com/y9eg3nec
This is probably a detachment rather than full Battalion.

History of the 85th - https://tinyurl.com/ydz9rzv7

Distribution of British Troops can be found here -
 https://www.scribd.com/doc/133832396/Nafziger-Collection-of-Orders-of-Battle-Index

Stations of British Army 6th Apr 1850 - //usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/850DAA.pdf
                                   1st Mar 1851 - //usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/851CAA.pdf
                                   5th Jul 1856 -   //usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/856GAA.pdf 


  Nowel

                                               

[hallmark]

Dungarvan

Diocese of Waterford and Lismore | County of Waterford  https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1105


with basic filters from Baptisms etc and Year

[Maiden Stone]

Dungarvan

Diocese of Waterford and Lismore | County of Waterford  https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1105


with basic filters from Baptisms etc and Year

I can't see a Margaret Ryan baptism in Dungarvan in 1830s on FindMyPast index (free search). You may have to browse the registers through 1830s and a bit before. There are some possibilities in nearby parishes. That's assuming Margaret met her husband in Waterford. She may have been from a parish which doesn't have registers for when she was born. Although the regiment was based in Dungarvan soldiers would have moved around.
I agree that you need either Margaret's marriage certificate or a look-up of St. Peter's marriage register, assuming she married there. The marriage may have been elsewhere in Scarborough district. Catholic missions existed before churches were built in English towns. Missions which survived when Catholicism was illegal held services in chapels in private houses, inns, farm-buildings.  New missions founded to minister to the increased Catholic population in England in 19thC tended to open a school before a church. Religious services would be in a room in the school. 

I suggest you do a timeline for John and one for his regiment from 1849 to end of 1851 and one for Margaret for same period.

[Maiden Stone]

nowel reply #14. That's useful stuff, thanks. I've bookmarked all the links.