Author Topic: "a coloured man" meaning?  (Read 10413 times)

Offline History Lives

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The "Coloured Man", John Potter, born circa 1778
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 22 February 20 14:07 GMT (UK) »
I am trying to trace the origins of John Potter, who was a sailor/mariner living in Pall Mall Liverpool, who married Frances Fisher of Handbridge, Chester,  in 1807 before moving there in the 1820. I initially assumed he was born in Liverpool but due to more information coming to light I'm not so sure.

Due to another post by a rubymelia, who is also a descendant of John Potter, I was alerted to an article written by someone called Terry Kavanagh, who referenced a Chester Chronicle article from February 20th 1824 relating to a John Potter:

Quote
“Mrs. Potter said her husband was a coloured man, by whom she had had two twins; and being a little dark in complexion, Mrs. James and her spouse, called them Devils. ‘Here's one of the Devils, Gentlemen, as she calls them; (producing a fine fat lad before the Bench) but this is not all: James's wife says, that I'm a stinking –, and that she's a farmer's daughter.’ Mr. James: ‘No such thing, Gentlemen. You don't know who she is, Gentlemen; she's the Queen [that is, the head scold or abuser] of Handbridge!’"  ... [the rest isn't directly relevant]

Though rubymelia seems to assume this means that John Potter was black, my spider sense is tingling on that one. Slavery wasn't abolished until 1833, so the chances of an African marrying a British woman are slim. My personal view is that he may have been a Romany gypsy (potter being a common gypsy profession) or an unusually dark British person (thinking Tom Jones or similar).

However, this is all up in the air, and I would like to know more about this if possible. None of the parish records seem to refer to his ethnicity.
North West, North Wales and Isle of Man:

Ward, Campbell, Cowin, Cowell, Parry, Fryer, Davies, Hughes, Briscoe, Jones, Spencer, Brownbill, Crowfoot, Nield, Randles, Youde

Gozo, Malta:

Apap / De Apapis, Camilleri, Grech, Muscat, Micallef, Custo, De Nasi

Angus, Scotland:

Ormond, Salmond, Cook, MacDonald

Offline stanmapstone

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Re: The "Coloured Man", John Potter, born circa 1778
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 22 February 20 14:20 GMT (UK) »
This has been covered before see topics now merged
"a coloured man" meaning? "
Stan
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline History Lives

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Re: The "Coloured Man", John Potter, born circa 1778
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 22 February 20 14:23 GMT (UK) »
This has been covered before see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802593.0

Hi I was hoping someone could help me understand this meaning?
My whole family are white, I am very pale in colour, however upon my research I found an article about my ggggg grandfather being a mariner with flatboats in Chester around early 1800's. The sentence reads as;  John Potter, “a coloured man” born about 1778. Does this mean my ancestor was of black descent?


Stan

Yes, I've read this one prior to posting. It has been inactive for quite a while now so I thought I would do a new post on it as rubymelia didn't seem to get any further.
North West, North Wales and Isle of Man:

Ward, Campbell, Cowin, Cowell, Parry, Fryer, Davies, Hughes, Briscoe, Jones, Spencer, Brownbill, Crowfoot, Nield, Randles, Youde

Gozo, Malta:

Apap / De Apapis, Camilleri, Grech, Muscat, Micallef, Custo, De Nasi

Angus, Scotland:

Ormond, Salmond, Cook, MacDonald

Offline Mart 'n' Al

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Re: "a coloured man" meaning?
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 22 February 20 14:39 GMT (UK) »
I really despair at political correctness, and I hate words changing for this reason, and I've said this before,

"The American black country singer Charlie Pride tells an interesting story. He says that over the 50 years of his career the media has regularly changed the way they describe him. He lists the different names used to refer to him before finally saying "well I'm just Charlie Pride.". Start this video at 2 minutes 10 seconds.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FwAkZPeHN2I

Martin


Offline majm

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Re: "a coloured man" meaning?
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 22 February 20 17:29 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for that link.


JM
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Offline majm

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Re: The "Coloured Man", John Potter, born circa 1778
« Reply #32 on: Saturday 22 February 20 17:38 GMT (UK) »
This has been covered before see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802593.0

Hi I was hoping someone could help me understand this meaning?
My whole family are white, I am very pale in colour, however upon my research I found an article about my ggggg grandfather being a mariner with flatboats in Chester around early 1800's. The sentence reads as;  John Potter, “a coloured man” born about 1778. Does this mean my ancestor was of black descent?


Stan

Yes, I've read this one prior to posting. It has been inactive for quite a while now so I thought I would do a new post on it as rubymelia didn't seem to get any further.

History Lives,  perhaps you could consider posting on that other thread to  ask for a progress report?


ADD

Opps 


 :-[

I see you had already posted there very recently.   Are you trying to contact that thread's original poster? 


JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline History Lives

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Re: The "Coloured Man", John Potter, born circa 1778
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 22 February 20 19:57 GMT (UK) »
This has been covered before see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802593.0

Hi I was hoping someone could help me understand this meaning?
My whole family are white, I am very pale in colour, however upon my research I found an article about my ggggg grandfather being a mariner with flatboats in Chester around early 1800's. The sentence reads as;  John Potter, “a coloured man” born about 1778. Does this mean my ancestor was of black descent?


Stan

Yes, I've read this one prior to posting. It has been inactive for quite a while now so I thought I would do a new post on it as rubymelia didn't seem to get any further.

History Lives,  perhaps you could consider posting on that other thread to  ask for a progress report?


ADD

Opps 


 :-[

I see you had already posted there very recently.   Are you trying to contact that thread's original poster? 


JM

Yeah I've left a post on there hoping she might respond but I then noticed she hasn't been online for about 6 months.
North West, North Wales and Isle of Man:

Ward, Campbell, Cowin, Cowell, Parry, Fryer, Davies, Hughes, Briscoe, Jones, Spencer, Brownbill, Crowfoot, Nield, Randles, Youde

Gozo, Malta:

Apap / De Apapis, Camilleri, Grech, Muscat, Micallef, Custo, De Nasi

Angus, Scotland:

Ormond, Salmond, Cook, MacDonald

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: The "Coloured Man", John Potter, born circa 1778
« Reply #34 on: Sunday 23 February 20 01:38 GMT (UK) »

Though rubymelia seems to assume this means that John Potter was black, my spider sense is tingling on that one. Slavery wasn't abolished until 1833, so the chances of an African marrying a British woman are slim. My personal view is that he may have been a Romany gypsy (potter being a common gypsy profession) or an unusually dark British person (thinking Tom Jones or similar).

You appear to be assuming that black people in Britain at the time were slaves.
 Reading articles from links on the other thread, one learns that there were established free black populations in Britain by 1800. The best remembered individuals were writers, musicians, clergy and businessmen. There were also publicans, shopkeepers, tradesmen, soldiers, sailors and many other occupations.

" .. barely 20% of the black population was female and intermarrying of black people to members of the white population was common " (late 18thC)
(BBC History - "The First Black Britons")

British Navy recruited free black labour - some settled in British port cities. Liverpool is mentioned as having a small black population. British Army had recruited former slaves during American War of Independence; some returned with their regiments to Britain and settled after the war ended.
"Intermarriage between black men and white women was high"
From English Heritage - History Stories "Black People in Late 18th Century Britain"
See links on the other thread.

Is Tom Jones "Jones the Voice"? Another Welsh Voice, Shirley Bassey was from Tiger Bay, Cardiff, which I believe had a long-established black population.

On the other hand, you may be correct that John Potter was of Romany origin.
As discussed on the original thread, defining the word coloured is difficult.
Is your spider's name Anansi?  :)
Cowban

Offline History Lives

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Re: The "Coloured Man", John Potter, born circa 1778
« Reply #35 on: Sunday 23 February 20 02:12 GMT (UK) »
Do you know if there would be any immigration / naturalization records for these? If so I will check through the registers and see if his name is mentioned.

It seems from the links provided + some research I've done today that some parish records specified that the person was a "Negro", yet none of the ones for John Potter do.

This is the kind of situation in which YDNA evidence would be useful.

Interestingly enough, there was another incident described in the Chester Chronicle in 1821 in which a a Mrs James taunted a Betty Price, saying "there's your black husband", referring to Mr Charles Price of Handbridge.

Fascinated by this, I began researching Charles Price to see what I could find, but nothing in his ancestry seemed unusual as both of his parents were also born in Chester. This leads me to think that standards of what was considered "black" or dark were much lower than they are nowadays.After all, surnames such as Black, Blackman, Brown, Duff, Cole, etc pertain to a dark-skinned individual but obviously not African.
North West, North Wales and Isle of Man:

Ward, Campbell, Cowin, Cowell, Parry, Fryer, Davies, Hughes, Briscoe, Jones, Spencer, Brownbill, Crowfoot, Nield, Randles, Youde

Gozo, Malta:

Apap / De Apapis, Camilleri, Grech, Muscat, Micallef, Custo, De Nasi

Angus, Scotland:

Ormond, Salmond, Cook, MacDonald