Reflecting on Armistice

[Maiden Stone]

There were empires long before the British one and they had plenty of wars and did nasty things. I also question whether an empire can be labelled "evil". The Romans were cruel but they had their good points.

Re the war with France 1702-1714  -  The Grand Alliance and War of Spanish Succession.  Louis xivth was also an aggressor.
Europe has had a big war in the 2nd decade of each of the last 3 centuries.

[Skoosh]

@ Regorian, where did you get the idea that "England Won!" the Hundred Years War? Shakespeare is not history. England was ignominiously defeated & booted out of most of France, the ill-fated Tudors saw England booted out of what was left! The fantasy of the fleur de lys continued on the English arms until George IV took a reality check.

Skoosh.

[Viktoria]

England and France were traditionally enemies.
After the Franco Prussian war it was decided that a neutral zone between them should be created and that neutral zone be respected and if necessary defended.
The neutral zone was created by taking some of French Flanders and Dutch Flanders.
The state of Belgium was created.
When Germany violated that neutrality in 1914 England and France defended it and so WWI.began.
What was created to save war became the cause of the biggest conflict the world had ever seen .
What a tragedy.
We went to  Belgium for November 11th,we got quite close to The Menin Gate,but as there was no
sound system we could hear nothing really.
The parade of contingencies from The Comonwealth and Britain were to parade to The Menin Gate,
we stood on Menin Street but were surprised to say the least that shops were open, cafes too and there was no Two Minutes silence as the parade had not ended by ten past eleven.
We waited for the poppies to fall from the roof of The  Menin Gate, eventually they did about twenty past eleven ,for just a few seconds.
No one knew what exactly was going on,it was quite upsetting as we later learned the Belgian T.V had shown some wonderful material.
It was a great privilege to be there but I was expecting to be overcome by sadness ,instead it was anger I felt most strongly .
The whole thing seemed botched,and this was the view of many around us.
Parking was understandibly difficult and side roads and lanes,especially up to Passendale  were choked with cars and coaches.
Perhaps a mini bus sefvice could have been organised .
People parking out of town and getting on a small bus to get to the pedestrianised area.
I am just about to search for any part of the service.
Viktoria.

[Maiden Stone]

Viktoria, did you mean to begin with the sentence "Germany and France were traditionally enemies" rather than "England and France …"? We went back in time to earlier wars  - sorry to have confused you.

[mike175]

Mike 175, one needs to have a broad knowledge of history. England/Britain was an agressor nation until WWI. Nothing controversial, just a matter of fact. First stage was 'get the French'. Ever heard of Agincourt 1415? The Royal Coat of Arms was quartered red and blue, the three English gold lions on a red background and the French gold fleur de lys on a blue background. We won, but luckily Henry V died young because we could not have dominated France and the opposite would have probably happened, as pointed out by Max Hastings recently.

England was on the up again in Tudor times, Europe certainly took us very seriously indeed. Then came the dross of the Stuarts. Once they were gone, 1694, formation of the Bank of England and the National debt. The main reason for the latter was to attract investment of cash for which annual interest was paid to pay for a vast increase in the strength of the Royal Navy to project commerce and power across the World.

Marlborough's Wars to get at the French again 1702 to 1714, The War of Austrian Succession 1741 to 1748 against the French and Spanish, and the main attack for World power, the Seven Years war, 1756 to 1763. Britain and Prussia versus the rest. 1759, the year of victories, Canada and India.

It went on until 1900 when the rot started. Are you aware of any of this? 

       

I was really taking a broader view of history. I'm well aware that England, subsequently Great Britain, built an empire over a period of several centuries, to the point where it controlled around a quarter of the World's people and lands, but it seems somewhat blinkered to single it out as the original "evil empire" just because it was the most successful at the time. Most of the larger nations of Europe and some of the smaller ones were competing, and fighting, with each other for trade and territory wherever they could find it, and trying to build empires.

In earlier times I believe the Romans might not have been entirely benign as they slaughtered their way across Europe, butchering or enslaving any opposition and wiping out around a third of the population of Gaul, for example. But that was alright because they were a great civilizing influence 

In no particular order, the Mongols had a bit of a reputation, as did the Greeks, the various Chinese dynasties, the Ottoman Turks ... the list is almost endless, and I seriously doubt if the British were even in the same league of evil as some of them 

We may have to agree to disagree, but that's OK with me 

[J.R.Ellam]

Yes we all know about the rights and wrongs of the Empire but the Remembrance about those who believed in what they were told and followed the orders and never came back to the Country they loved. We should also reflect on those who did come back. The ones who had to live with what they saw, the ones who survived those horrible injuries and the ones that came back "not living but not dead" and lived the rest of their lives tucked away in some sort of Institution or Asylum.
I have been a couple of times to the Menin Gate and it's always been bad for parking but the remembrance service is usually very moving.
So back to the point and we can say that the ceremonies to commemorate the Armistice in this Country should have been held at 10 o'clock and not 11 o'clock because they forgot to factor in the time zone difference.

John

[Viktoria]

Viktoria, did you mean to begin with the sentence "Germany and France were traditionally enemies" rather than "England and France …"? We went back in time to earlier wars  - sorry to have confused you.

Well we were always at loggerheads with France because “English “kings were from France,William the Conqueror, The Plantagenets etc and sonEngland claimed their territories by right, Eleanor Of Aquitaine brought vast portions of France when she married Henry ll. Her son John lost most of those lands.
So it was strange we should ally with France against the Germans but we had both signed to protect Belgium’s neutrality so for the first time in a long time we and France were allies.
The German Royal family were cousins to ours of course,we have fought France many times as has been said .
It was thought a neutral zone between France and Germany would prevent another conflict like the recent(recent when Belgium was formed ) Franco Prussian war.Germany invaded Belgium on its way to invading France again
so as Britain was a guarantor of the neutrality of Belgium, this time we were with France.
What did I put! I had just got back from my son’s where the taxi took us all and he drove me home so I was shattered.
Should have checked before posting.
Thanks very much ,I ought to have waited until this morning but rushed in 
Cheerio. Viktoria

[Regorian]

It's good to see I'm not the only one with some knowledge of wider history. The current mindset only dates from 1956, because we were weak, permanently. Some people realised in 1945, my mother commented many years ago 'that we had taken a step down' . Only two nations mattered, USA and Soviet Union. Now Russia is weak and China is challenging the US. China is the only Nation which has risen again that I can think of.

It's evident from some posts that there are still people who deny our decline and fall.

   

 

[LizzieW]

Where I live now the council have been very pro-active with the 100 year anniversary.  There were originally 13 of those silent soldiers, (see photo) in the area, but more and more people and organisations wanted to buy one, so we ended up with many more, including ones of nurses.  They are by the side of the roads, on roundabouts, outside the community centre etc.  They also had 3 parades on 11 November, one in the morning through town and then a service, one in the afternoon to a monument we have that remembers Indian soldiers who were in the town during WWI and then one in the evening before lighting of two beacons on the clifftop.

Despite all these reminders around the town, there is a letter in the local paper today to say that there were army cadets who were supposed to be selling poppies but were, in fact, lolling against a wall, drinking coke from cans and playing on their 'phones.  So not all young people were as respectful as they might have been.  I guess, following the letter, that the young cadets involved will be reprimanded by the cadet leader.