Author Topic: World War One. Gipsy Roll of Honour.  (Read 10051 times)

Offline panished

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Re: World War One. Gipsy Roll of Honour.
« Reply #18 on: Saturday 02 February 19 17:32 GMT (UK) »
The story first started about the Bacon's when i read that they stopped at Hawthorne Street the Meadows Nottingham on the camping ground where the Smiths and Wilsher Families that i was reseaching sometimes stopped, i then read this below from the journals of the Gipsy society, thomson was refering to the Bacon's.

AFFAIRS OF EGYPT 1909

By Thompson
These notes are compiled almost entirely from the large volume weighing seven pounds of Press cuttings collected by the Society's Honorary Secretary On March 15 some so called Gypsies were evicted from a camping ground in Hawthorne Street, Nottingham.
                 
 So i thought who are the Bacon's, this thompson says they are so-called Gipsies. Well they seem to be connected to a few Gipsy families, they could of come from the South, they may not be Bacon's, they could of married a Gipsy famly and took to the road, but i dont know what the real truth is, i will do my own best to find it.

 The 1901 census shows Charles Bacon aged 30, b Selston, Notts, a coal miner, living at Wilson's Fields Caravan with his wife Charlotte. Charlotte was aged 42 and was born in Barrow-on-Soar, Leics.
In 1891 Charles was living at "Caravan, Sand Hill", Worksop with his parents William and Emily and siblings including a sister named Parthenia.
1881 census RG11 3323 Folio 72 page 20
Charles Bacon with siblings inc Parthinia living with grandparent Harry Bacon widower 61 a farmer of 13 acres at Selston born Essex
William Bacon 40 labourer born London with wife Emily 38 born Selston.
1871 census RG10 3479 folio 54 page 27 Selston
 Boffits Farm - Henry Bacon 51 farmer wife Hannah 61 granddaughter Hannah 2
1861 census RG9 2432 folio 11 page 18 Selston
Dog Kennels - Henry Bacon 41 farmer 20 acres. Wife Hannah 50
William Bacon son 19 farmer’s son

Saturday 02 September 1905
Grantham Journal
  Lincolnshire

 —Fined John Smith, alias William Bacon, Ambrose Bacon, Charles Bacon, and George Garratt, gipsies, Cremorne-ground, Nottingham, were summoned..........(Cremorne-ground is right next to Hawthorne Street or maybe it was one and the same)

 Friday 13 November 1914
  Mansfield Reporter
Nottinghamshire

A SUCCESSFUL ALIBI.—An alibi was set up as the defence in a case in which Ambrose Bacon. Aged 15. who lives in a van with his father at Sutton, was summoned for stealing a purse, 

Nottingham evening post Wednesday 14 June 1916
 WORK-SHY & UNREGISTERED.
 GRAVE CHARGES AGAINST NOTTINGHAM YOUTHS.
 
Two described as van-dwellers, were remanded at the Nottingham Shire Hall this morning upon charges of having obtained money by false pretences.  In the case of the first defendant, William Smith, the Deputy Chief constable said he was unattested and unregistered. The other defendant was a youth named Ambrose Bacon, who said he was only 17, but Mr. Harrop remarked that he had been unable find his birth certificate.
He was, however, quite willing to  " join  the army. "
 
Private BACON, AMBROSE
Service Number 59552
Died 17/08/1917
Aged 31
16th Bn.
Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)
Son of William and Emily Bacon, of Meadows, Nottingham.
 
INSCRIPTION
NOT FORGOTTEN BY HIS LOVING BROTHER JOHN AND FAMILY
then it also mentions Johns address. (Mr. J. Bacon Caravan, Burn St., off Garden Lane Sutton.in.Ashfield
 
 Ilkeston Pioneer
Thursday 29 November 1866 

"FEMININE ROW "
Emily Nowby, alias Bacon, hawker, Selston, was charged by Elizabeth Woodward, of Castle Donington, hawker, with assaulting her Husband, on the 27th Nov. Prisoner admitted the charge, but said she did so under circumstances of great provocation from the complainant. The Bench having heard the evidence of the prosecution, and the filthy language said to be used by each side, dismissed the charge, considering one as bad as the other. —The parties are stepsister's.

From these stories below there must have been a few Ambrose Bacons……..  all record just extracts.

Friday 08 July 1921
  Mansfield Reporter
Nottinghamshire

MANSFIELD PETTY SESSIONS
  —Ambrose Bacon, Sutton in-Ashfield, admitted to being drunk and disorderly at sutton   
 
Friday 16 December 1921
  Sheffield Daily Telegraph
  South Yorkshire

... Edward Elliott and Ambrose Bacon, living in a van in Lindley's Yard. Marsh Gate, were charged at the Doncaster Borough Court, yesterday, with attempting to obtain £4 by false pretences from Oliver Edward Bunting, licensee of the Salutation Hotel. 
     
Wednesday 24 May 1939
 Nottingham Journal

NOTTINGHAM MAN FINED A Nottingham dealer, Ambrose Bacon, was charged at Melton Petty Sessions yesterday with driving a motor car and trailer without due care and attention at the Sea grave crossroad's. Thrussington. 
   
Thursday 10 February 1944
 Nottingham Evening Post
  Nottinghamshire

SUTTON COUPLE IN COURT
... COURT Sequel To Police And Military Visit John Bacon and his wife, Emma, residing at Coombs-yard, Sutton-in-Ashfield, were at Mansfield, to-day, summoned for aiding and assisting their two sons, Ambrose and Wm. Bacon, members of the R.A.F., to desert. 

I will next try and write everything i have found regarding the Bacon's, the people they are with and the people they are related to, the places they travelled to and stayed at, who they are and where they came from, who was from the Gipsies or anything rearly, then i will write of the Scamps from the South. 

Offline panished

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Re: World War One. Gipsy Roll of Honour.
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 03 February 19 09:17 GMT (UK) »
I have just updated the Roll of Honour, with the Gipsies that Mel found and also William Smith who was with Ambrose Bacon in one of the records, i am sure he went to war to, if anybody can add to the list of these i think it would be a fine thing todo, if i find any information on the Genealogy of any of the Gipsy people that others find i will write the records up for there relatives who look for more than just a name on a cold piece of stone or hidden away old papers dusted with time, i have found so many people who are in no way related to a single Gipsy who themselves suffered the same plight as that of some of the Gipsies of who i talk of, it looks like to me that the truth was kept away from the public as in historical teachings, after the first wave of casualties in their thousands the government was very desperate and went looking for more soldiers from just everyday types of people, people that they used to victimise, people who were getting on in life and not rearly up to it were also targeted as the body count rose, people of the times i speak of who saw with their own eyes soldiers going away and never coming back must of thought what the hell was all this for, Mothers were trying to hide their sons, the government changed there age requirement's and several other different categories so as to be able to get more people to the front line, they were evan fighting in an old fashion way that they used to use in the 1800s, they just made thousands of men charge the enemy, the trouble was this tactic was used against swords yeares ago now they made men and boys run straight at machine guns, it was told by the German gun men that their guns would glow hot from the thousands of bullets that they pumped into the soldiers that were ordered to charge and get cut to threads, my pals Father who now is in his nineties told of a story from an older man he new who was in the trenchers, this man told how he and his brother survived the war by listening to the noise of the machine guns, he said the officer in charge would sound the charge for hundreds of men and boys to climb out and over the trenchers and attack the German lines the guns would then mow everybody down cut to bits but if you listened as best you could a person could follow the sway of the machine guns, so as they made a bussing or some kind of noise you would know that they was shooting in a wave like left to right and the noise would sound slightly different, he said this is how they saved there own life, at the moment the noise of the guns were just going to the left or right they would jump up and run forwards then hide down again, i will write up much more soon



Gipsies
 Roll of Honour
  Worled War One
    28 July 1914 – 11 November 1918.
 
Thomas Cunningham
Mathew Cunningham
John Jack Cunningham VC
Ambrose Bacon
Charles Bacon
Samuel Brazil   
Sidney Harris MM
Abraham Keat 
David Keet 
Benjamin Lee
Abraham Ripley
Abraham Ripley 
Alfred Riley Scamp
Samuel Scamp
Riley Scamp
Silvester Gordon Boswell
John Cole
William Smith

Offline panished

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Re: World War One. Gipsy Roll of Honour.
« Reply #20 on: Monday 06 May 19 21:18 BST (UK) »
 right then, did you know that we as a people did not want to enter the war, who knows that, no one ok, so lets travel back, there was the talk of home rule, what about all the kings and queens of all the lands, well hold up a bit, look, all the major countrys of ww1 had a vested innerest in africa and the larger worled as in lets get as much in our pockets as we can, but the irish question,well, the germans was doing as the germans do, fair play they are hard as they come, but in this land they asked the army old generals to go and make sure that if they give home rule to the irish that no one will course trouble, but the thing is that in the north of ireland there was thousands of scottish setterlas, and in ireland itself from hundreds of yeares many english gentery were inbeded in grand houses and owned land, well when the germans wanted to rule europe the english thought their empire would be taken over but their own generals said that they would not fight against the british landlords in ireland, so when the germans invaded belgium, it was a kind of excuse to forget about the irish home rule problem, well then becourse we had a treaty with Belgium from the times of napolian, we said we would attack the germans, evan thoe they was our relatives, if we had kept out there would have been a united ireland and no i.r.a. instead we are now debating the brexit question, if germany had won the war that would have been what the remainers wanted, that would have been the E.U. anyway anough of the history lesson, lets show respect for all the Dead Gipsy People that no one wants to rest, so now we will continue with the truth


Offline panished

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Re: World War One. Gipsy Roll of Honour.
« Reply #21 on: Monday 06 May 19 21:52 BST (UK) »
So now its time to move on, first, i will tell of the great Scamps, then after the Scamps i will look for the Decons, i have come across many records of the peoples who are known as being apart of the British Gipsy family, there storys are untold, i have been reading and researching about the first world war, what i have found is we as a nation at first wanted no part in the conflict, then when we did enter we had the smallest of armies, they were great fighting soldiers most got compleatly wiped out very soon by the vastness of the mighty Germans, then we had the reserve type of army that we sent they got butcherd to, then we had the Kitcheners army, the ones who answered the call, you have all seen the old posters of how your country needs you, these were the pals regiments, also somtimes known as the chums regiment, these to got blasted away over time, what was left was bits and pieses of all these, the war would be lost so now they considered conscription, the other countrys had already done this, it was apart of mobilisation, thats what you do before you declare war, in the begining a person for reasons of age or job disciption could become what is known as exempt, everyone else though of fighting age had to go, do not forget back in British Towns and Viligers people had seen all the men go of to war and never retern, why would a person want to go when you new you was going to die, the military police serounded picture houses and football grounds to find men, this became known as the "roundup" as more died the goverment changed the age limit and exemtion details several times for every time they sent out men they got killed, in the end the war was won by the fighting soldiers that never signed up to go in the first place, not anough truth as been wrote i think, everyone should be proud of all the people who ended up in battle, i am trying to find them

Offline whiteout7

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Re: World War One. Gipsy Roll of Honour.
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday 14 May 19 09:58 BST (UK) »
I wonder if this group were all related

Alfred Scamp   East Kent Regiment   L/8117   Pte   
Charles Scamp   East Kent Regiment   2960   Pte   (born 1893?)
Gilderoy Scamp   East Kent Regiment   204082   (born 1881?)
Solomon Scamp   East Kent Regiment   SR/10386   (born 1892)
W R Scamp   East Kent Regiment   204080   Pte

*FindMyPast suggests that Gilderoy Scamp   East Kent Regiment   204082 was born in 1881 and that he was a Prisoner of War.

*FindMyPast suggest that Solomon Scamp   East Kent Regiment   SR/10386 was born in 1892 and that he was a Prisoner of War. This mans medal card also say his first theatre of war was France, he was a special reserve used to bring the battalion up the strenght whe others were injured.

I'd say Gilderoy and Solomon should both be included as they are listed as known gypsies on the Scamp thread by Cathayb
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=332370.9

Wemyss/Crombie/Laing/Blyth (West Wemyss)
Givens/Normand (Dysart)
Clark/Lister (Dysart)
Wilkinson/Simson (Kettle or Kettlehill)

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Re: World War One. Gipsy Roll of Honour.
« Reply #23 on: Monday 20 May 19 20:54 BST (UK) »
 Hi Mel

Good to hear from you, thank you very much for trying to help all the long gone Gipsy peoples, they will know of you forever, thank you very much you are a kind person, i have updated the Gipsies Roll of Honour to show your words, also now Henry Deacon wants to signe up, of course He is most welcome to join this outlawed lost band of soldiers of fighting high repute, did you know i have found records of councils of England at the times of the first world war talking and trying to evict Gipsies from land and calling them all kinds of rotten names, then in the same papers in the same times and the same locations they have the police taking away Gipsies to fight for English freedom, how mad is that, the rotten sods of traitors themselves, they all have treated the Gipsies with comtempt yet evan as they kick them down they charged them to fight for the freedom to be kicked down, this is the truth, to many Gipsies of today and people with Gipsy ancestry plus everyone else do not know the truth, firstly there are lots of Gipsies, all this you are only married in and we are the real ones is just the devils talk, i will be back to talk the truth, people have been conned by bad historians, but the Dead are rising, they will not let history cloak them in lies where others dwel and find the strength in such darkness to do the darks bidding, Mel, keep up the good work, you are a soldier to the truth, the strangers wither at your words, i will leave much more words for later, let us first keep putting down the names of the Great Gipsy Dead, if we make mistakes they are more than welcome to stay, let no one remove a single name from the ones we all find, i will talk of the Bacons soon, a very hard research this as been for me, they want to be found but much is going on and many voicers are talking, our work goes on


Gipsies Roll of Honour
 World War One
    28 July 1914 – 11 November 1918.
 
Thomas Cunningham
Mathew Cunningham
John Jack Cunningham VC
Ambrose Bacon
Charles Bacon
Samuel Brazil   
Sidney Harris MM
Abraham Keat 
David Keet 
Benjamin Lee
Abraham Ripley
Abraham Ripley 
Alfred Riley Scamp
Samuel Scamp
Riley Scamp
Silvester Gordon Boswell
John Cole
William Smith
Alfred Scamp   East Kent Regiment   L/8117   Pte   
Charles Scamp   East Kent Regiment   2960   Pte   
Gilderoy Scamp   East Kent Regiment   204082   
Solomon Scamp   East Kent Regiment   SR/10386   
W R Scamp   East Kent Regiment   204080   Pte
Henry Deacon

 
 Friday 03 May 1918
 Surrey Mirror
  Surrey 

HOW  HE ESCAPED SERVICE.-At the Oxted Police Court, before Mr. F. Cobham (chairman) and Air. C. T. Alaw, Monday, Henry Deacon (35). a gipsy, charged with failing to submit himself for military service under the Military Service Act,—P.S. Jolliffe deposed  that on April 26th. 3 p.m., he saw the prisoner in a caravan at Haxted, Lingheld. Witness asked why he was not in the Army, and if had any papers to show that he had been exempted. Prisoner produced a certificate of discharge, which, was out of date and had been tampered with. Witness asked for his classification card, and whether he had been medically examined since his discharge from the Army.  He replied “ No.” Witness took him to Oxted.—The Clerk  said the certificate which, prisoner handed over was a soldier’s discharge from the Territorial force, dated 1911. but the dates had been obviously tampered with, the National Service Department, asked for the prisoner to be handed over to the military authorities.—The magistrates ordered the prisoner to be handed over for a military escort

Online louisa maud

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Re: World War One. Gipsy Roll of Honour.
« Reply #24 on: Monday 20 May 19 22:38 BST (UK) »
"encamped on the Bohemian Estate, Southend"

I have no idea where this is in Southend but I think it is St Lawrence Church Eastwood was always known as a gipsy church

Louisa Maud
Census information is Crown Copyright,
from  www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Garner, Marylebone Paddington  Northolt Ilford
Garner, Devon
Garner New Zealand
Maddieson
Parkinson St Pancras,
Lethbridge Paddington Slough
Jenkins Marylebone Paddington
Mizon/Mison/Myson Paddington
Tindal Marylebone Paddington
Tocock, (name changed to Ellis) London
Southam Marylebone, Paddington
Bragg Lambeth 1800's
Edermaniger(Maniger) Essex Kent Canada (Toronto)
Coveney Kent Lambeth
Sondes

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Re: World War One. Gipsy Roll of Honour.
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 21 May 19 20:05 BST (UK) »
 Hi Louisa, i do hope you are well and your Family fine, thank you for your input, i have really tryed to learn of the Gipsy Family's from the South, i have looked into their life's over hundreds of yeares, that thompson fellow was a writer of an educated mind, like lots of them writers, most of them never had a clue in my mind of nothing, many in this day will say i am wrong, i respect their opinion and not the least bit put out am i, there was a lot going on in the times of the War, i will not say to much but i can not find anyone talking up for the Gipsies, all thoes so-called scholors, where were they, if i find any thing from them i will of course write it up

IV. AFFAIRS OF EGYPT, 1909 
By Thomas William Thompson

  All that is given below is a short precis, alas! Frequently couched
In uncouth 'journalese,' 
  The year 1909 was ushered in by the sequel to the Boxing Day
Quarrels of the Gypsies encamped on the Bohemian Estate, Eastwood, Southend.
This estate is partly owned and partly rented by about twenty-five or thirty
Families of Gypsies, who make it their permanent home. They are divided into
Two distinct camps the converted Gypsies, the Buckley’s and Smiths and their
Connections; and a varied mob of unregenerate pos-rats and ' mumpers ' belonging
to the families Smith, Stone, Bibby, Draper, Scarett, Webb, Livermore, Harris,
Laws, etc. Skirmishes naturally take place between the rival factions, whilst
Internal disturbances are almost as rife 


Dundee evening telegraph Thursday 19 august 1920

                                            GIPSIES CHANGED BY THE WAR.

                                               Now Attend Places of Worship. 
 
The travels of the gipsies from the Bohemian Estate, Southend, to the harvest fields in the midlands and West is now taking place. Until lately there have been as many as 250 caravans on the estate, which is the gipsies' freehold, and the migrants will return at the beginning of winter. The war has brought about a deemed change in the habits of these people, writes the Southend correspondent. Quite a number of them now attend places of worship in the vicinity of the encampment, a thing quite unknown before. Numbers of them lost relatives who served with the Forces, a fact which has brought them in to a closer touch with the villagers. Some of the caravans, too, are pictures- of neatness. Children in a good many hammocks slung beneath the wheel their parents occupying the bunks inside. The gipsies arrived in the neighborhood about sixteen years ago, their travels are gradually diminishing. Some go away on the summer exodus and fail to return; others become prosperous and take houses.


 

Offline skyshot1990

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Re: World War One. Gipsy Roll of Honour.
« Reply #26 on: Friday 24 May 19 18:20 BST (UK) »
Here is a Wilshire/Wilshaw/Wilsher/Wiltshire cousin in the army...
John Wiltshire
1879–1917
Birth APRIL 1879 • Alverthorpe, Yorkshire, England
Death 2 APRIL 1917 • France and Flanders

Name-John Wiltshire
Gender-Male
Death Date-2 Apr 1917
Death Place-France
Rank-Private
Regiment-Northumberland Fusiliers
Regimental Number-3/10068
Other Records-John Wiltshire - NorthumberlandFusiliers 3/10068

My great gran father Joseph Wilshire/Wilsher was a private in the second world war, I am waiting to see if I will be sent his service record.
Wilsher, Wilshire, Wilshaw, Wilcher, Wiltshire
Boyling, Boylin, Boilin
Woodward
Nelson
Winter, Winters
Gregory
Knight
Smith