Author Topic: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!  (Read 2830 times)

Offline ard

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 14 November 18 22:35 GMT (UK) »
What I have for Elizabeth Walters Southern

1841 Lincolnshire (LIN) Part Lindsey Louth   639 11 47 18  Spital Hill
WATERS  Ann F 50 Charwoman S(cotland)   
WATERS  Elizabeth F 15  S(cotland) (Regardless of who made it, I'm fairly sure that there is an error here - especially if she is the mother of Mary and Rebecca!)   
WATERS    Mary F   8 LIN   
WATERS   Rebecca   F 4 LIN

1851 she was married living in Carlton Scroop. The children would have been those of Thomas' wife Ann Beck who died in 1845.
Thomas Southern    36 b Great Gonnerby  Ag Lab
Elizabeth Southern    39 b Scotland
Ann Southern    11b Coddington Nottinghamshire
Betsy Southern    9 b Carlton
John Southern    6  b Carlton

1871 census Newark Upon Trent, Nottinghamshire, England
6  GBC/1871/3543/0049
Thomas Southern   Head M 56 Great Gonerby, Lincolnshire
Elizabeth Southern   Wife F 59 Scotland

Census, 1881 Page 38 RG11Piece/Folio: 3377/22 Newark Upon Trent, Nottinghamshire, England
Thomas Southern Head 66 Gt Gonerby, Lincolnshire, England
Elizabeth SouthernWife Female 69 Scotland

She seems to have died in 1881, Thomas in 1884 and, as I mentioned, Thomas' first wife Ann had died in 1845.

Elizabeth Southern
England and Wales Death Registration Index 1837-2007
Name   Elizabeth Southern
Event Type   Death
Registration Quarter   Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration Year   1881
Registration District   Newark
County   Nottinghamshire
Event Place   Newark, Nottinghamshire, England
Age   69
Birth Year (Estimated)   1812
Volume   7B
Page   235
Affiliate Line Number   104

But Alas, as seems often the case, I can find recorded information for anyone but my direct ancestor... in this case Caroline!
CNL.DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin;Harding;Williams;Goman;Cock;Browne;Leach;Martin;Hewett. *KNT:Foster;Piper. *ESSX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon;Wellens.  *MDX:Gruber;Shortland;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Ricketts.
*LCN:Burton;Blackburn;Walters; *SCOT:Blair;Dick;Stevenson;Williamson;Halliday;;Gilchrist;Leggat;Davies;Frew;Pollock;Richmond;Houston;McLachlan
 . *NI:Ferguson;Boyd. *DEU:Gruber,Henne,Hohln(Württemberg)Hoffmann(Birkenfeld)

Offline ard

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 14 November 18 22:46 GMT (UK) »
I'm wondering if this could be Ann Walters.

I'm grasping at straws that have "ifs" all over them but here goes (My great-grandmother, Caroline's granddaughter was named Agnes Ann. The Scots have quite strict naming patterns but I haven't investigated it Caroline applied them to her own children.


Agnes Ann Walter
England and Wales Death Registration Index 1837-2007
Name   Agnes Ann Walter
Event Type   Death
Registration Quarter   Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration Year   1875
Registration District   Louth
County   Lincolnshire
Event Place   Louth, Lincolnshire, England
Age   87
Birth Year (Estimated)   1788
Volume   7A
Page   396
Affiliate Line Number   230

Agnes Ann Walter
England Deaths and Burials
Name   Agnes Ann Walter
Gender   Female
Burial Date   28 Jul 1875
Burial Place   Louth, Lincoln, England
CNL.DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin;Harding;Williams;Goman;Cock;Browne;Leach;Martin;Hewett. *KNT:Foster;Piper. *ESSX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon;Wellens.  *MDX:Gruber;Shortland;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Ricketts.
*LCN:Burton;Blackburn;Walters; *SCOT:Blair;Dick;Stevenson;Williamson;Halliday;;Gilchrist;Leggat;Davies;Frew;Pollock;Richmond;Houston;McLachlan
 . *NI:Ferguson;Boyd. *DEU:Gruber,Henne,Hohln(Württemberg)Hoffmann(Birkenfeld)

Offline Mckha489

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 14 November 18 22:52 GMT (UK) »
looking for a birth for Rebecca I found

..., DIANA       CROSKELL     
GRO Reference: 1839  S Quarter in LOUTH UNION  Volume 14  Page 460
..., REBECCA       CROSKELL     
GRO Reference: 1839  S Quarter in LOUTH UNION  Volume 14  Page 460

ie a Diana and a Rebeca where the indexers apparently couldn't decipher the surname, Mother's maiden name Croskell


Well - that was great while it lasted. FreeBMD shows them as BALDOCK and looking at the actual page I have NO idea why there was any trouble reading it at GRO
currently concentrating on a number of Staffordshire families.


Online Kay99

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #21 on: Thursday 15 November 18 04:51 GMT (UK) »
You are right Ard it is a really complex family  ;D  Apologies for the typo re the marriage year for Thomas and Elizabeth

Re the baptisms from Mary and Rebecca I couldn't see them online on Family Search but the parish records are also on FindMyPast and on the image Mary's bapt in 1833 lists her mother as Elizabeth - single woman -Little Carlton -on the image of Rebecca's lists Rebecca illiegimate - daughter of Elizabeth single woman - Little Carlton   Interesting that the baptism of James doesn't list the marital status of Ann

I do think that in the 1841 census with Ann, Elizabeth, Mary and Rebecca the enumerator just put in the wrong age for Elizabeth.   And it would make sense if she was the eldest we know off, born in Scotland pre Ann moving to England   

However this doesn't help too much re Caroline

On Family Search found a possible baptism for Elizabeth Walters in  North Leith in 1811 with parents Thomas Walters and Ann Binnie   https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQCR-6ZK    There is possible marriage for the couple in 1810 in Edinburgh https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT1G-GZ5

Kay

Added - I can't see Elizabeth Walters/Southern or her family in 1861  :-\

Online Kay99

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 15 November 18 05:08 GMT (UK) »
I'm wondering if this could be Ann Walters.

I'm grasping at straws that have "ifs" all over them but here goes (My great-grandmother, Caroline's granddaughter was named Agnes Ann. The Scots have quite strict naming patterns but I haven't investigated it Caroline applied them to her own children.


Agnes Ann Walter
England and Wales Death Registration Index 1837-2007
Name   Agnes Ann Walter
Event Type   Death
Registration Quarter   Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration Year   1875
Registration District   Louth
County   Lincolnshire
Event Place   Louth, Lincolnshire, England
Age   87
Birth Year (Estimated)   1788
Volume   7A
Page   396
Affiliate Line Number   230

Agnes Ann Walter
England Deaths and Burials
Name   Agnes Ann Walter
Gender   Female
Burial Date   28 Jul 1875
Burial Place   Louth, Lincoln, England

I think you are right .    In 1871 Ann is living in Louth I think - listed 83 born Scotland and a former laundress(which I see you already found).   The image of the parish burial is on FindMyPast but lists no more info

Kay

Added - I can't think of a way to prove it but I do think that Caroline was Ann's daughter

Just a thought re James Walter/s and his listing of his father as Abraham when he marries in 1858.   I  found an Abraham Mower/Mawer(a widower) b 1783 living in Little Carlton in 1841 (next door to where James worked), who was buried in Little Carlton on 3 Oct 1856.   If James's father was Abraham and not an invention then maybe the vicar asked him who was his father and he just said Abraham??  :-\

Offline ard

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #23 on: Thursday 15 November 18 10:31 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Kay for confirming that Elizabeth's girls were "illegitimate". I think Mary remained unmarried. They, of course, weren't my direct ancestors but such events would sure put a damper on researching one's ancestry! I think it's always important to remember that many families had secrets and not all declared children were as they appeared!! Short of DNA testing, especially for there earlier generations, we can never really be sure!

I suppose it's possible that Ann went from Scotland to Kent (perhaps with a husband) before ending up in Lincs. Maybe Caroline even grew up in Lincolnshire  (I had assumed she went as a young woman) This would be all the more likely if James, born in in L. Carlton, was her brother. And if Ann was widowed young and had illegitimate children of her own, they would have the Walter surname anyway. My great-grandmother certainly seemed to have felt connected to her Walters side**  (she named one of her sons Walter as diid her Aunt Emma (Burton) Dobson) and also called Rebecca her Aunt (albeit a looser definition in this case) since, at best, Rebecca might have been her mother's cousin.

Added: ** which is interesting in and of itself since Agnes father was German and her mother Thirza died when Agnes was about 3 (along with her 2 baby brothers.) Although her father remarried and had more children, maybe she visited a lot with her Lincolnshire relatives

You've all been very helpful!  :D Thank you so much! There is certainly a lot to here to think about!
CNL.DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin;Harding;Williams;Goman;Cock;Browne;Leach;Martin;Hewett. *KNT:Foster;Piper. *ESSX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon;Wellens.  *MDX:Gruber;Shortland;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Ricketts.
*LCN:Burton;Blackburn;Walters; *SCOT:Blair;Dick;Stevenson;Williamson;Halliday;;Gilchrist;Leggat;Davies;Frew;Pollock;Richmond;Houston;McLachlan
 . *NI:Ferguson;Boyd. *DEU:Gruber,Henne,Hohln(Württemberg)Hoffmann(Birkenfeld)

Offline ard

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #24 on: Thursday 15 November 18 10:57 GMT (UK) »
And to think, if my great-grandmother hadn't had the weird habit of iadopting other's surnames , I mightn't have taken a closer look at the Bee couple for whom she was working as a domestic in 1891. It was this that led me to find out about Rebecca Walters (and all the name varients) Now if I can only figure out where she got "Vere de Vere"!
CNL.DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin;Harding;Williams;Goman;Cock;Browne;Leach;Martin;Hewett. *KNT:Foster;Piper. *ESSX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon;Wellens.  *MDX:Gruber;Shortland;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Ricketts.
*LCN:Burton;Blackburn;Walters; *SCOT:Blair;Dick;Stevenson;Williamson;Halliday;;Gilchrist;Leggat;Davies;Frew;Pollock;Richmond;Houston;McLachlan
 . *NI:Ferguson;Boyd. *DEU:Gruber,Henne,Hohln(Württemberg)Hoffmann(Birkenfeld)

Offline ard

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #25 on: Friday 16 November 18 01:04 GMT (UK) »
I was wondering, don't death certificates sometimes indicate the name of a spouse, even if deceased? Would it be worth sending away for? I'm just not entirely sure it's her because of the Agnes part of the name.

I wonder too which Cemetery she would have been buried at and if there is a stone. There appear to be many cemeteries in Louth!
Agnes Ann Walter
England Deaths and Burials
Name   Agnes Ann Walter
Gender   Female
Burial Date   28 Jul 1875
Burial Place   Louth, Lincoln, England

I think James Walters was buried at Louth as well (if this is him
James Walters
England Deaths and Burials
Name   James Walters
Gender   Male
Burial Date   30 May 1892
Burial Place   Louth, Lincoln, England
.
Sigh. I might just have to accept that I won't be able to put this puzzle together to get a full picture!! It has been an interesting challenge!
CNL.DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin;Harding;Williams;Goman;Cock;Browne;Leach;Martin;Hewett. *KNT:Foster;Piper. *ESSX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon;Wellens.  *MDX:Gruber;Shortland;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Ricketts.
*LCN:Burton;Blackburn;Walters; *SCOT:Blair;Dick;Stevenson;Williamson;Halliday;;Gilchrist;Leggat;Davies;Frew;Pollock;Richmond;Houston;McLachlan
 . *NI:Ferguson;Boyd. *DEU:Gruber,Henne,Hohln(Württemberg)Hoffmann(Birkenfeld)

Offline Mckha489

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #26 on: Friday 16 November 18 04:32 GMT (UK) »
If it was me I’d buy Agnes Ann’s death cert. just so long as you are prepared for it to be useless, but you won’t know unless you get it. The informant might be informative.
currently concentrating on a number of Staffordshire families.