Author Topic: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!  (Read 2824 times)

Offline ard

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 14 November 18 19:03 GMT (UK) »
Hmm. This seems to be a complex family.

I am trying to consolidate what has been found so far and will add some information that I had but that was confusing to me and which might make a tiny bit more sense with all that is coming to light.

Family notes (which in my experience are often, at best, incomplete or mixed up but which usually contain grains for truth and hints) have that Thirza was "Scotch". I dismissed this because Caroline did not appear to be from Scotland and William Burton's family was not. Thirza was their oldest child but not likely born out of wedlock since C and W married in 1842 and she was born around 1844 (I don’t have the precise date). I would be surprised if she considered herself Scottish, even if her mother happened to be.

In the 1841 census record that I initially found with Ann, Elizabeth, Mary and Rebecca, Ann and Elizabeth were noted as born in Ireland. However, this might have been an error since in the 1851 census, Ann is noted as being born in Scotland. If Scotland is correct, then it would make sense that Elizabeth would be born in Scotland too and fit with the 1851 census entry that Kay found.
 
There is a discrepancy with the finding of baptized Mary (1833) and Rebecca (1838) being the daughters of Elizabeth and the LDS record I found of Mary baptized in 1833 daughter of Ann.

I find it hard to believe though that Elizabeth would be the mother of Mary and Elizabeth if in 1841 Elizabeth's age (even if rounded to the nearest 5) was only 15 while Mary was 8 and Rebecca 4. The numbers don’t add up. Hmm. (!) Unless it was mistranscribed and Elizabeth age was recorded as 25 instead of 15 - that would make sense!! Then if it is her, age 39, in 1851 with Thomas Southern then that 15 being 25 might even more accurately be 28 or 29 making Elizabeth born C1813 (In Scotland, daughter of Ann nee ? Walters also born in Scotland.

So let’s say that Ann was the mother of Elizabeth (b.around 1813) and James (b. around 1827 according to 1851 census) (and possibly even Caroline?) Some of Ann’s children could have been born out of wedlock before she married (?) Abraham (father of James) or Thomas (father of Elizabeth) Walters. (this definitely isn’t a puzzle with easy fitting pieces!!!)

Maybe Elizabeth Walters had two children out of wedlock before marrying widower Thomas Southern (father of John Southern who married Caroline's daughter Mary Ann) in 1847 or 1857 (the fact that they both end in 7 makes a transcription error plausible). Charlotte Beck would be Ann Southern (nee Beck)’s mother. Maybe Ann actually died before 1851 and that at that time Thomas was already a widower and that Elizabeth Walters was living there  as his wife (if they married in 1847) or maybe first as a nanny/housekeeper before marrying officially (if in1857). So Rebecca’s “father” at marriage might simply have been her stepfather, given that Mary was born around 1833 and Rebecca 1838 (well before 1841 when Thomas was married to Ann).

Sooo much to speculate on! Of course there are many more scandalous scenarios possible but it would be pointless to try to speculate on those if they can’t be verified!

I am still confused about Caroline born in Woolwich (this is consistent with all the censuses). I can only find one possible LDS record for a Caroline birth in Woolwich (a bit early)
Caroline Waters: Birth about 1819 of Woolwich, Kent, Eng. Mother Mrs. William Waters;  Father William Waters …

I'm thrilled with all these bits and pieces of data - even though they are odd-fitting pieces, they are interesting ones!

CNL.DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin;Harding;Williams;Goman;Cock;Browne;Leach;Martin;Hewett. *KNT:Foster;Piper. *ESSX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon;Wellens.  *MDX:Gruber;Shortland;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Ricketts.
*LCN:Burton;Blackburn;Walters; *SCOT:Blair;Dick;Stevenson;Williamson;Halliday;;Gilchrist;Leggat;Davies;Frew;Pollock;Richmond;Houston;McLachlan
 . *NI:Ferguson;Boyd. *DEU:Gruber,Henne,Hohln(Württemberg)Hoffmann(Birkenfeld)

Offline Mckha489

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 14 November 18 19:12 GMT (UK) »
Quote
In the 1841 census record that I initially found with Ann, Elizabeth, Mary and Rebecca, Ann and Elizabeth were noted as born in Ireland. However, this might have been an error since in the 1851 census, Ann is noted as being born in Scotland. If Scotland is correct, then it would make sense that Elizabeth would be born in Scotland too and fit with the 1851 census entry that Kay found.

On the image I looked at the letter denoting country born could easily be interpreted as either an I or an S
currently concentrating on a number of Staffordshire families.

Offline ard

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 14 November 18 19:32 GMT (UK) »
Ah! That's what the comment " Could be an I or an S" meant! Sorry, I was going to ask you and then forgot. In that case, it stands to reason that it was an S and the transcriber whose entry I found opted for an "I" and went so far as to write IRL! That's one discrepancy easily solved!

Thank you  ;)
CNL.DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin;Harding;Williams;Goman;Cock;Browne;Leach;Martin;Hewett. *KNT:Foster;Piper. *ESSX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon;Wellens.  *MDX:Gruber;Shortland;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Ricketts.
*LCN:Burton;Blackburn;Walters; *SCOT:Blair;Dick;Stevenson;Williamson;Halliday;;Gilchrist;Leggat;Davies;Frew;Pollock;Richmond;Houston;McLachlan
 . *NI:Ferguson;Boyd. *DEU:Gruber,Henne,Hohln(Württemberg)Hoffmann(Birkenfeld)


Offline Mckha489

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 14 November 18 19:34 GMT (UK) »
Quote
Maybe Ann actually died before 1851 and that at that time Thomas was already a widower and that Elizabeth Walters was living there  as his wife (if they married in 1847) or maybe first as a nanny/housekeeper before marrying officially (if in1857). So Rebecca’s “father” at marriage might simply have been her stepfather, given that Mary was born around 1833 and Rebecca 1838 (well before 1841 when Thomas was married to Ann).

Is was 1847. I think K just did a typo
currently concentrating on a number of Staffordshire families.

Offline Mckha489

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 14 November 18 19:37 GMT (UK) »
Quote
!) Unless it was mistranscribed and Elizabeth age was recorded as 25 instead of 15 - that would make sense!!

It’s clearly 15 in the image.  So unless the enumerator got it wrong Elizabet is anywhere between 15 and 19.
currently concentrating on a number of Staffordshire families.

Offline Mckha489

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 14 November 18 20:07 GMT (UK) »
I wonder why in the 1871 census Caroline has been crossed out and replaced with Charlotte, although all other details fit.  It’s been done with a thick nib, and there are those two heavy strokes with the same nib next to London.

currently concentrating on a number of Staffordshire families.

Offline ard

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 14 November 18 20:41 GMT (UK) »
Yes, I had noted that also but I have no explanation. She is consistently Caroline from 1841 to her death in 1913 (I am pretty sure that is when she died) except that one time.

1841

HO107 648 11 13
Caroline Waters 20 F(emale).S(ervant). 
The Rectory, Welton le Wold
Godfrey Egremont 65 clergyman N
Maria 65 N
Charlotte 35 N
Eliza Bucknall 25 FS Y
Caroline Waters 20 FS Y
Elizabeth Shaw 20 FS Y
William Headland 15 MS Y

In earlier directories, at Welton le Wold (gentry and tradesmen only listed)

Name:   Caroline Burton
County:   Lincolnshire
Event Type:   Census
Event Date:   1861
Event Place:   Welton Le Wold, Lincolnshire, England
Registration District:   Louth
Residence Note:   Welton Village
Gender:   Female
Age:   40
Marital Status:   Married
Relationship to Head of Household:   Wife
Birth Year (Estimated):   1821
Birthplace:   London, Middlesex
Page Number:   9
Registration Number:   RG09
Piece/Folio:   2383 / 90
Affiliate Record Type:   Household
Household   Role   Sex   Age   Birthplace
William Burton   Head   Male   46   Welton, Lincolnshire
Caroline Burton   Wife   Female   40   London, Middlesex
Mary Ann Burton   Daughter   Female   15   Welton, Lincolnshire
Moses Burton   Son   Male   13   Welton, Lincolnshire
Elizabeth Burton   Daughter   Female   11   Welton, Lincolnshire
Eliza Burton   Daughter   Female   8   Welton, Lincolnshire
Fanny Burton   Daughter   Female   6   Welton, Lincolnshire
Henry Burton   Son   Male   4   Welton, Lincolnshire
Charles Burton   Son   Male   1   Welton, Lincolnshire:

(note in 1871 Caroline was crossed out and Charlotte written over)
Charlotte Burton
England and Wales Census, 1871
Name:   Charlotte Burton
Event Type:   Census
Event Date:   1871
Event Place:   Welton Le Wold, Lincolnshire, England
Enumeration District:   32
Gender:   Female
Age:   50
Marital Status:   Married
Relationship to Head of Household:   Wife
Birth Year (Estimated):   1821
Birthplace:   London
Entry Number:   18
Affiliate Image Identifier:   GBC/1871/3404/0202
Household   Role   Sex   Age   Birthplace
William Burton   Head   Male   56   Welton Le Wold, Lincolnshire
Charlotte Burton   Wife   Female   50   London
Elizabeth Burton   Daughter   Female   20   Welton Le Wold, Lincolnshire
Charles Burton   Son   Male   11   Welton Le Wold, Lincolnshire
Emma Burton   Daughter   Female   9   Welton Le Wold, Lincolnshire

1872 White's Gazetteer  Mrs Caroline Burton, shopkeeper

1875 PO Directory lists Mrs William Burton as a Shopkeeper in Welton le Wold

1876 Kelly's Directory Mrs William Burton, shopkeeper

England and Wales Census, 1881
Name:   Caroline Burton
Event Type:   Census
Event Date:   1881
Event Place:   Welton-Le-Wold, Lincolnshire, England
Registration District:   Louth
Residence Note:   The Square
Gender:   Female
Age:   60
Marital Status (Original):   Widow
Occupation:   Grocer
Relationship to Head of Household:   Head
Birth Year (Estimated):   1821
Birthplace:   London, London, Middlesex, England
Page Number:   8
Registration Number:   RG11
Piece/Folio:   3263/134
Affiliate Record Type:   Household
 
1882 White's directoryy Mrs Caroline Burton, shopkeeper


England and Wales Census, 1891
Name:   Caroline Burton
Event Type:   Census
Event Date:   1891
County:   Lincolnshire
Parish:   Welton Le Wold
Ecclesiastical Parish:   WELTON LE WOLD
Registration District:   Louth
Residence Note:   The Square
Gender:   Female
Age:   70
Marital Status:   Widow
Occupation:   Dressmaker
Relationship to Head of Household:   Head
Birth Year (Estimated):   1821
Birthplace:   Kent, England
Page Number:   3
Registration Number:   RG12
Piece/Folio:   2608/ 167


1896 Mrs Caroline BURTON Dressmaker
Caroline Burton


England and Wales Census, 1901
Name:   Caroline Burton
Event Type:   Census
Event Date:   31 Mar 1901
Event Place:   Louth, Lincolnshire, England
County:   Lincolnshire
Civil Parish:   Louth
Ecclesiastical Parish:   St James
Sub-District:   Louth
Registration District:   Louth
Residence Note:   Union Street
Gender:   Female
Age:   80
Occupation:   LIVING ON OWN MEANS
Relationship to Head of Household:   Head
Birth Year (Estimated):   1821
Birthplace:   Woolwich, London
Schedule Type:   140
Page Number:   20

England and Wales Census, 1911
Name:   Caroline Burton
Event Type:   Census
Event Date:   1911
Event Place:   Louth, Louth, Lincolnshire, England
County:   Lincolnshire
Parish:   Louth
Sub-District:   Louth
Registration District:   Louth
Gender:   Female
Age:   90
Marital Status (Original):   WIDOW
Birth Year (Estimated):   1821
Birthplace: Woolich, Kent
Line:   1
Page:   1
 
Source Information:
  Dwelling   The Square
  Census Place Welton Le Wold, Lincoln, England
  Family History Library Film   1341778
  Public Records Office Reference   RG11
  Piece / Folio   3263 / 134
  Page Number   8

CNL.DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin;Harding;Williams;Goman;Cock;Browne;Leach;Martin;Hewett. *KNT:Foster;Piper. *ESSX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon;Wellens.  *MDX:Gruber;Shortland;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Ricketts.
*LCN:Burton;Blackburn;Walters; *SCOT:Blair;Dick;Stevenson;Williamson;Halliday;;Gilchrist;Leggat;Davies;Frew;Pollock;Richmond;Houston;McLachlan
 . *NI:Ferguson;Boyd. *DEU:Gruber,Henne,Hohln(Württemberg)Hoffmann(Birkenfeld)

Offline ard

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 14 November 18 21:04 GMT (UK) »
at the time of the 1861 census sisters Mary and Rebecca Walters each worked in for Solicitors with the surname Allison.

1861Piece: RG9/2382 Place: Louth -Lincolnshire Enumeration District: 17
Civil Parish: Louth Ecclesiastical Parish: Louth
Folio: 27 Page: 24 Schedule: 125
Address: 13 Crow Tree Lane The Hill
ALLISON Thos Faulkner Head M 31 Attorney And Solicitor  Lincolnshire - Louth   
ALLISON    Mary Deane Wife M 27Lincs -Louth
ALLISON    Fanny Deane Dau 2 Lincs - Louth
ALLISON    Henry Faulkner Son 1Lincs - Louth LAKING Paul Servnt U 25 Footman And Gardener Lincolnshire - Louth           
STANLEY Sarah Servnt U 24Domestic Cook Lincolnshire - Scramblesby           
WADE Mary Servnt U 31 Housemaid Lincs - Martin Fen           
WALTERS Mary Servnt U 27  Upper Housemaid Lincolnshire - Little Carlton           
BURDETT Jane Servnt U 17 Under Housemaid  Northamptonshire - Isham   
***

1861   Lincolnshire (LIN)   Louth 2380 1 4 1 2  Westgate
ALLISON   William   Head M 32 Solicitor LIN Louth
ALLISON   Helen P.   Wife M 24 LIN Louth   
ALLISON   William   Son 2 LIN Louth      
ALLISON   Edward Grant Son  1 LIN   Louth   
ALCOCK   Elizabeth   Servnt U 24 Cook LIN Cockerington      
PATRICK   Sarah Servnt U 25 Nursemaid NTH Barton
WATERS   Rebecca   Servnt U 23 Nurse LIN Louth
ROBSON    Harriett Servnt U 16 Nurse SRY Fulham
CNL.DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin;Harding;Williams;Goman;Cock;Browne;Leach;Martin;Hewett. *KNT:Foster;Piper. *ESSX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon;Wellens.  *MDX:Gruber;Shortland;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Ricketts.
*LCN:Burton;Blackburn;Walters; *SCOT:Blair;Dick;Stevenson;Williamson;Halliday;;Gilchrist;Leggat;Davies;Frew;Pollock;Richmond;Houston;McLachlan
 . *NI:Ferguson;Boyd. *DEU:Gruber,Henne,Hohln(Württemberg)Hoffmann(Birkenfeld)

Offline ard

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Re: WALTERS - Trying to tie the pieces together!
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 14 November 18 22:29 GMT (UK) »
What I have got for Ann Walters is this

1841 Lincolnshire (LIN) Part Lindsey Louth   639 11 47 18  Spital Hill
WATERS  Ann  50 Charwoman, Scotland    
WATERS  Elizabeth 15 (Unless there was another Elizabeth, this age is likely wrong), Scotland   
WATERS    Mary  8 LIN   
WATERS   Rebecca 4 LIN

1851 census Louth, 12 HO107  2111 / 576 Likely as transcription error for Walters.
Lincolnshire, England; South Street 
Ann Waiters Head 62 Scotland
James Waiters Son Male 24   Carlton, Lincolnshire
Rebekah Waiters Grand Daughter Female 13 Carlton, Lincolnshire

1861 census  Page  7 RG09   2382 / 19 Lincolnshire, Louth, South Street (I don't know if there are others in the household.)
Ann Waters 72 Head W occ. Mangle Woman b. Scotland Birth Year (Estimated) 1789
Note: a mangle or wringer is a mechanical laundry aid consisting of two rollers in a sturdy frame, connected by cogs and, in its home version, powered by a hand crank or electricity.

Census, 1871 19 GBC/1871/3403/0056 Louth, Lincolnshire, England dist. 17 (I don't know if there are others in the household.)
Ann Walters  Head 83 Widowed  Laundress b. Scotland
Birth Year (Estimated): 1788


CNL.DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin;Harding;Williams;Goman;Cock;Browne;Leach;Martin;Hewett. *KNT:Foster;Piper. *ESSX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon;Wellens.  *MDX:Gruber;Shortland;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Ricketts.
*LCN:Burton;Blackburn;Walters; *SCOT:Blair;Dick;Stevenson;Williamson;Halliday;;Gilchrist;Leggat;Davies;Frew;Pollock;Richmond;Houston;McLachlan
 . *NI:Ferguson;Boyd. *DEU:Gruber,Henne,Hohln(Württemberg)Hoffmann(Birkenfeld)