Stuck and need some inspiration please. Cold trail Bermondsey 1881

[Fredsboy]

As a newbie I seemed to be doing so well, until I went down the Bermondsey side of the family.

Starting point are the parents of:
Isabella Howell: bn 20 Sept 1880 75 Friar Street to John and Ellen (nee Weatherley, I believe this is Weatherby)
Alice Howell: bn 9 June 1886 11 Denman Rd to John & Ellen ((nee Weatherley, I believe this is Weatherby)
and a few other sisters and brother I have and good on.
 
In 1891 John (widower) and family are living at 23 Debness Road (I believe this is Debnams Road) and I think Ellen died in 1888, possibly in child birth to daughter Ellen.

John is variously a fish cure/seller and labourer. His offspring continue in fish related stuff (Billingsgate was a short walk over the river). John remarried (actually I don't think he married the first time) in 1893 when he gave his fathers name as 'William', and he died in 1900 (I have certificate).

I know there is a Howell family nearby, also John (bn in Hoxton) and Ellen, who is a life long paper cutter, so I can eliminate them in older searches.

In 1881 there is  John & Ellen Howell at Mina Court with a daughter Isabella (7 months) and daughter Mary A, aged 5.  I am fairly certain this is them as I can throw a small cloth over the various addresses they are at afterwards.

I have tried every permutation I can think of but drawing a blank on finding out anything on John and Ellen before 1881 or what happened to Mary A.

Any suggestions very gratefully accepted, you've all been inspirational so far

Paul

[KGarrad]

GRO Online Index (https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content - you have to register but it's free!) has:

HOWELL, ISABELLA        (Mother's Maiden Name:) WEATHERBY      
GRO Reference: 1880  D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 56    

HOWELL, ELLEN        WEATHERBY      Oder
GRO Reference: 1882  J Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 59    

HOWELL, ANNIE        WEATHERBY        
GRO Reference: 1884  D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 87

HOWELL, ALICE        WEATHERLEY        
GRO Reference: 1886  S Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK  Volume 01D  Page 284

HOWELL, ELLEN        WEATHERBY        
GRO Reference: 1888  J Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK  Volume 01D  Page 284
 

[avm228]

Baptisms (all Howell):


St John’s, Waterloo Rd

3 Oct 1880: Isabella (b 3 Sep 1880), dau of John (gen dealer) & Ellen, of 4 Herbert’s Bldgs, Webber St

7 May 1882: Ellen (b 7 Apr 1882), dau of John (gen dealer) & Ellen, of 6 King’s Pl, King’s St, Lancaster St, Blackfriars

St Mary, Newington

5 Oct 1884: Annie (b 7 Sep 1884), dau of John (gen dealer) & Ellen, of 41 Brandon St.

11 Jul 1886: Alice (b 9 June 1886), dau of John (gen dealer) & Ellen, of 11 Denman Rd, Rotherhithe.

St Katharine’s, Rotherhithe

17 April 1888: Ellen, dau of John (fishmonger) & Ellen, of 22 Debnam’s Rd.

[keyboard86]

Hi just a long shot, but this family in 1871 caught my eye:-

Mary WETHERBY 44 Widow
John J 24
Ellen 17
Isabella 15
Residing at Gun Street, Southwark
Census ref RG10/604/48/29
Keyboard86

[keyboard86]

Hi again, in 1861 this family is headed by a John WEATHERBY 48 occ Hawker of Poultry, Ellen is Eleanor, Mary is Mary Ann, at same address as 1871
Census ref RG09/331/78/12
Keyboard86

[osprey]

birth reg for Ellen

Elinor Weatherby sept qtr 1853 Lambeth vol 1d pg 228 mmn Aguirra

Isabella seems to have been registered as Jane sept qtr 1855 vol 1d pg 211 same mmn

There had been an older sister Ann Isabella registered sept qtr 1850 same mmn, but she died dec qtr 1854

John Weatherby, bachelor, huckster married Mary Ann Hussey, widow, 10 April 1855 at St John's Lambeth, his father Nicholas, mariner, hers Joseph Aguirra, musician, both of Victoria Place, both signed, witnesses Nicholas Weatherby and Ealnor Boakes.
Eleanor Margaret Weatherby had married John Lawrence Boakes in December 1842, one of the witnesses was M Aguirra.

 

[osprey]

Mary Ann's first marriage

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N6XQ-87Z

Nehemiah died aged 30 march qtr 1854 Lambeth vol 1d pg 189

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Possible for JOhn in 1871, living in Southwark?

Robert Petts    31
Hannah Petts    20
William Petts    1
William Fenwick    45
James Hatford    25
John Howell    20 - lodger, labourer b St Saviour [Southwark]
Joseph Couser    19

RG10, 596, 52, 43

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Just to count this out if you come across it

Mary Ann Howell, father John Henry Howell, fishmonger
Edward Bisshopp, public house manager. Father Edward Bowyer Bisshopp, traveller

Marriage Date:    3 Jan 1893, St Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey, Southwark

However - 1901 suggest she's born Brighton with a sister Lizzie b c1876 also b Brighton. I can find them in 1881 in Brighton with father and mother, and on GRO. Parents married in 1867  so not the right John Howell fishman