Author Topic: Did a father have to be present to be named at a baptism? - SOLVED  (Read 2319 times)

Offline jen56johns

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Did a father have to be present to be named at a baptism? - SOLVED
« on: Friday 16 November 18 09:37 GMT (UK) »
Hi all,

Wondering if anyone can help me with this question. I have an ancestor who was born in Cornwall in 1876. He was named William Henry Williams on the birth certificate, no father listed and mother was Gertrude Johns. That alone is unusual to start with, isn’t it? Normally if the father isn’t listed, the child has the mother’s surname but not here.

Then I found the baptism and he becomes William Henry Albert Williams and the father is listed as William Henry Williams and occupation listed.  So... could Gertrude have gotten her son baptised without the father being present or him agreeing to this? Or does this imply that the parents were possibly “together” at least at this point?  They never married.

All future records for the child referred to Albert Johns, so this is why I’m questioning how the father came to be acknowledged at the baptism.

All thoughts and ideas appreciated!

Thanks,

Jenni
Johns - Cornwall
McNerney - Manchester
Speakman - Manchester
Warman - Faringdon
Utting - Norfolk

Offline avm228

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Re: Did a father have to be present to be named at a baptism?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 16 November 18 10:12 GMT (UK) »
Neither parent has to be present (or even alive) in order to be named on the baptism.  The register simply records the names of the parent(s), as provided to the minister at the time by whoever is presenting the child for baptism.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline mazi

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Re: Did a father have to be present to be named at a baptism?
« Reply #2 on: Friday 16 November 18 10:22 GMT (UK) »
Is he the William Henry w johns June quarter 1876 in Helton, if so free bmd has listed the surname as Johns,  and William Henry Williams are his first names, the surname is assumed to be the mother’s

Mike

Offline jen56johns

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Re: Did a father have to be present to be named at a baptism?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 16 November 18 10:26 GMT (UK) »
Interesting maxi, thank you. GRO has his surname listed at Williams.

And thanks avm228 - I guess that explains a few things.
Johns - Cornwall
McNerney - Manchester
Speakman - Manchester
Warman - Faringdon
Utting - Norfolk


Offline rosie99

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Re: Did a father have to be present to be named at a baptism?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 16 November 18 11:32 GMT (UK) »
Interesting maxi, thank you. GRO has his surname listed at Williams.


GRO has him as Johns, he does not appear to be listed under Williams as well https://www.gro.gov.uk/

JOHNS, WILLIAM  HENRY WILLIAMS    (No mothers maiden surname on index)     
GRO Reference: 1876  June Quarter in HELSTON  Volume 05C  Page 221

If you have the actual certificate it does not give a surname for the person whose birth is being registered it just gives their first names then names both parents with their surnames. 
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline trish1120

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Re: Did a father have to be present to be named at a baptism?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 16 November 18 11:46 GMT (UK) »
I see the 10 Sept 1876 Baptism on FreeREG but Familysearch.Org has Bapt the same day;
SUSAN MARY Williams to William Henry and Gertrude Williams
Same residence Herland Cross
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Cummins, Miskelly(IRELAND + NZ) ,Leggett (SFK + NFK ENGLAND + NZ),Purdy ( NBL ENGLAND + NZ ), Shaw YKS, LANCs + NZ), Holdsworth(LINCS +LANCS + NZ), Moloney, Dean, Fitzpatrick, ( County Down,IRE) Newby(NBL.ENG, Costello(IRE), Ivers, Murray(IRE),Reay(NBL.ENG) Reid (BERW.SCOTLAND)

Offline HughC

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Re: Did a father have to be present to be named at a baptism?
« Reply #6 on: Friday 16 November 18 16:17 GMT (UK) »
I suspect it varied from parish to parish, perhaps at the whim of the clergyman.

I found some baptisms in southen English ports where only the mother is mentioned.  Normally that would be a fair indication that the birth was illegitimate, but I happen to know she was married to a naval captain, who was presumably away at sea and therefore could not be present.
Bagwell of Kilmore & Lisronagh, Co. Tipperary;  Beatty from Enniskillen;  Brown from Preston, Lancs.;  Burke of Ballydugan, Co. Galway;  Casement in the IoM and Co. Antrim;  Davison of Knockboy, Broughshane;  Frobisher;  Guillemard;  Harrison in Co. Antrim and Dublin;  Jones around Burton Pedwardine, Lincs.;  Lindesay of Loughry;  Newcomen of Camlagh, Co. Roscommon;  Shield;  Watson from Kidderminster;  Wilkinson from Leeds

Offline osprey

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Re: Did a father have to be present to be named at a baptism?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 16 November 18 16:35 GMT (UK) »
that would appear to be an error on FamilySearch. Susan Mary was the daughter of William Henry & Elizabeth Ann Haughton and the residence is different.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n1k/

I'm not seeing a likely local marriage for a William Williams to a Gertrude.

I've got a different scenario for one relative a few years earlier in Gerrans. Unmarried parents but father was present at the registration so on the birth certificate, but on the baptism mother is noted as 'single woman'.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline jen56johns

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Re: Did a father have to be present to be named at a baptism?
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 17 November 18 07:59 GMT (UK) »
Interesting maxi, thank you. GRO has his surname listed at Williams.


GRO has him as Johns, he does not appear to be listed under Williams as well https://www.gro.gov.uk/

JOHNS, WILLIAM  HENRY WILLIAMS    (No mothers maiden surname on index)     
GRO Reference: 1876  June Quarter in HELSTON  Volume 05C  Page 221

If you have the actual certificate it does not give a surname for the person whose birth is being registered it just gives their first names then names both parents with their surnames.

Well, the searchable gro index has him listed as William Williams, mother’s surname Johns.  If you search for surname johns on the GRO index, he doesn’t appear.
Johns - Cornwall
McNerney - Manchester
Speakman - Manchester
Warman - Faringdon
Utting - Norfolk