Author Topic: Entering same man with two names and two families at same time  (Read 1555 times)

Offline edmac

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Re: Entering same man with two names and two families at same time
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 20 November 18 22:28 GMT (UK) »
Yes I am careful that all the information recorded in my own database is correct and fully documented but I have yet to see a convincing argument that I am under any obligation to make it publicly available.

Cheers. Ed


If you have no intention of putting the information in the public domain, why are you collecting it?



Regards

Chas


Would you believe I am a family historian?

Offline Kiltpin

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Re: Entering same man with two names and two families at same time
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 20 November 18 23:14 GMT (UK) »
Yes I am careful that all the information recorded in my own database is correct and fully documented but I have yet to see a convincing argument that I am under any obligation to make it publicly available.

Cheers. Ed


If you have no intention of putting the information in the public domain, why are you collecting it?



Regards

Chas


Would you believe I am a family historian?
But you want to conceal the information from the other family?

Regards

Chas
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Offline MaecW

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Re: Entering same man with two names and two families at same time
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 21 November 18 00:24 GMT (UK) »
Quote from: Kiltpin on Today at 21:03
"If you have no intention of putting the information in the public domain, why are you collecting it?"
I have to agree with Edmac that he is under no obligation to make any information public. Even putting aside the particular circumstances he has described, there can be any number of reasons why people would not want their family details made generally available to all and sundry via public trees.
Several members of my family work on family history and we maintain our own databases, on home computers, sharing information and sometimes cross-checking sources. Between us we have many thousands of individuals and we are happy to share with other members of the wider family once they have established their "credentials". I can see no value in posting onto one of the commercial on-line systems and certainly no value in making it public if you do. Those public trees that I have seen that include members of my family seem to be constructed either by well-intentioned people who do not understand the basics of establishing proof or by "name-collectors" who really don't care. These issues have been well aired in these threads, as has the danger of losing all your information if your supplier folds or your subscription expires.
Each of us has come to this hobby (?!) in different ways and for different reasons. It is entirely our prerogative what we do with the information we gather and nobody has the right to demand anything of us.

Maec
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Offline majm

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Re: Entering same man with two names and two families at same time
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 21 November 18 06:39 GMT (UK) »
Perhaps you could write it up as though week and weekend
Chap as though two males, TWIN brothers born same day, same parents, and same birth cert reference no,  and include your great aunt and children attaching to one twin and other family to other twin.....  anyone sighting your work in years to come should know to read notes attached to particular people,  so write your knowledge as a note on your great aunt.

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Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Entering same man with two names and two families at same time
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 21 November 18 08:30 GMT (UK) »
My last comments on the subject.

snip 
As I don't know any of the members of the weekday family who are only remotely connected to my tree I cannot have any responsibility to them.  Yes I am careful that all the information recorded in my own database is correct and fully documented but I have yet to see a convincing argument that I am under any obligation to make it publicly available.

Cheers. Ed

You claim you do not have any responsibility to the weekday family but are willing to hide the truth of a historical relationship relevant to them, illogical.


snip
Would you believe I am a family historian?

Not if you are willing to conceal the truth, no!

snip
Several members of my family work on family history and we maintain our own databases, on home computers, sharing information and sometimes cross-checking sources.

Have you thought what could happen after your death, how other people could then compare the information on your private database to what you have shared with others and notice discrepancies.
Those people who previously thought your were being truthful with them then wonder why you lied to them or even why you did not trust them with the truth. You are by then dead and they cannot ask you for your reasons and are left feeling hurt that you did not feel you could trust them with the truth.
The truth may cause a short term hurt but hiding facts to prevent that short term pain may cause a lifetime of anguish, ask parents who have had a stillborn child who no one will talk about “In order to save them from pain”. Most will tell you that causes more pain than the loss of their child in the first place.
Ask adopted children who have found out after years of thinking their adoptive parents were their birth parents about the pain and mistrust that causes.
Ask the parents or spouses and children of ex-soldiers who have committed suicide because they were suffering from PTSD and nobody would talk to them about their pain, I could go on and on giving examples where hiding the truth causes more harm that being open and honest, but what is the point your mind is made up, however edmac asked for advice showing he/her has questions in his/her mind.

snip
 It is entirely our prerogative what we do with the information we gather and nobody has the right to demand anything of us.

Maec


Nobody is demanding edmac does anything he/she asked for advice as to what to do “as I am approaching my use by date then I need to decide what to do.” I and others have offered such advice and backed that advice with reasons why it is in our and in the minds of professionals why it is the less hurtful course of action in the long term, rather than the easiest course of action, short term.

Cheers
Guy
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Offline Lady Di

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Re: Entering same man with two names and two families at same time
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 21 November 18 08:35 GMT (UK) »

 In this instance it would not be a case of falsification of the record, because there are no records. I know that it is the same man because of what I have been told by a credible witness …

Cheers. Ed

With apologies - I'm a little confused.

You say that there are no records - it's all heresay told to you by a credible witness; BUT didn't all this happen over 100 years ago?

How would anyone know what days the man in question stayed at which house?
If he had children by both "wives", is his name on all birth certificates?
Aren't birth certs classified as "records"?

 ???


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Offline edmac

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Re: Entering same man with two names and two families at same time
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 21 November 18 10:34 GMT (UK) »

 In this instance it would not be a case of falsification of the record, because there are no records. I know that it is the same man because of what I have been told by a credible witness …

Cheers. Ed

With apologies - I'm a little confused.

You say that there are no records - it's all heresay told to you by a credible witness; BUT didn't all this happen over 100 years ago?

How would anyone know what days the man in question stayed at which house?
If he had children by both "wives", is his name on all birth certificates?
Aren't birth certs classified as "records"?

 ???

I think I will go along with Guy and call it a day. I didn't realise that this subject could create such angst.
To clarify ,yes it happened more than a century ago. The birth certificates I have seen for weekend family has the father's name that he used there but I have not seen any for the weekday family but assume that they would bear the name he used in that location.  My information about how he divided his week came from a grandson who was told by his father and uncle about their life as children.

Whilst  "no man is an island" we still have to make our own decisions. I think it unreasonable to be expected to even attempt to forcast the reaction of some unknown person at some unspecified time in the future to any piece of information.  That way lies madness. It is difficult enough in these times to do the right thing for our living relatives.

Regards. Ed

Offline MaecW

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Re: Entering same man with two names and two families at same time
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 21 November 18 11:29 GMT (UK) »
Really Guy,

A bit of an overreaction there ! I didn't offer any advice one way or the other to Edmac : it really is his decision to make.

As indicated at the top of my posting, I was responding to Kiltpin’s comment to Edmac "If you have no intention of putting the information in the public domain, why are you collecting it?" which, to me, seemed to be saying that all our research is pointless unless put in the public domain . I attempted to explain that there are a number of reasons why it might be that a researcher chooses not to make their findings public.
You seem to have read a great deal more into my comments than I actually wrote. At no stage did I suggest any action which would result in “Those people who previously thought your were being truthful with them then wonder why you lied to them or even why you did not trust them with the truth”. Nor do I support suppressing the truth from those who need to know, as in the examples quoted by you, so why do you accuse me of that and say that my mind is made up ?  I would suggest however that there is a difference between sharing this sort of personal information with close family and, perhaps, friends and making it available for the general public to read.

 I have made arrangements for my files to be passed to another interested family member on my death and my records and notes contain the usual collection of human frailties from the alcoholics, to the unmarried mother, to the bankrupt, to the lad transported to Australia. I have no problem with recording the truth but I don’t see what this has to do with putting it all out there on an Ancestry Tree for the general public to access. Apart from the obvious security risks ( a good way to help build a fake identity, for a start), you only have to refer to the thread “ Ancestry tree rubbish” on “The Lighter side” to see why many people prefer to avoid that and similar sites.

I note that Edmac has now made his decision and closed his enquiry and I think his closing paragraph sums the matter up nicely.

Maec
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Offline davidft

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Re: Entering same man with two names and two families at same time
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 21 November 18 14:43 GMT (UK) »
I have a man who used two different names whilst maintaining two families at the same time. Must admire his stamina but it is a pain not knowing what to do with him on an ancestry tree.  I have no problem with recording this on my PC but wonder what to do with him on the ancestry tree which is public.  Joe lived with my grand aunt at weekends and fathered three boys with no living descendants at this time.  However, his weekday family under his real name appears on several trees on ancestry so presumably there are descendants who are unaware of their weekend relatives. If I include his real name on my anc tree as an alternative then this could be picked up by a descendant.  Personally this would not matter to me, it was over a century ago, but others could see it differently even after all this time.  Might add at this stage I am the sole custodian of this information, with no written evidence and as I am approaching my use by date then I need to decide what to do.

Cheers. Ed

I really do sympathise with you and there is no easy answer. I have recently joined MyHeritage in order to do a bit of DNA tracking (i.e. which parts of my ancestors I get which part of my DNA from). Early on I discovered a near relative who has my great grandparents as his father's parents. I am pretty certain this is wrong and all the circumstantial and other evidence points to it being wrong. I am pretty certain that who he thinks are his grandparents are in fact his great grandparents and that one of their daughters is actually the mother of his farther.

If he contacts me do I mention it or just keep shtum. I haven't resolved that yet but am erring on the side of not mentioning it on the basis its not my business to potentially upset the person in question.
James Stott c1775-1850. James was born in Yorkshire but where? He was a stonemason and married Elizabeth Archer (nee Nicholson) in 1794 at Ripon. They lived thereafter in Masham. If anyone has any suggestions or leads as to his birthplace I would be interested to know. I have searched for it for years without success. Thank you.