Author Topic: Why no digitisation of birth, mariage and death vital records?  (Read 6069 times)

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Why no digitisation of birth, mariage and death vital records?
« Reply #45 on: Saturday 24 November 18 12:26 GMT (UK) »
I wish to say, it is a great hobby and I hope you all make many fascinating discoveries about your ancestors.

The more you dig, the more you will find out.

All the best, Mark

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Why no digitisation of birth, mariage and death vital records?
« Reply #46 on: Saturday 24 November 18 13:22 GMT (UK) »
Hello

Yes, some people did have two written signatures too, one of my ancestors used two.

I have several specimens of my mystery Ancestor's, that he used when signing business documents and another when signing on church documents and his Will (identical, although frail on his Will).

Errors in Family Trees
After seeing some terrible errors in family trees online, I can't stress enough, that where you can afford to get a scan of the original document and you wish to, obtain it.

You often see information not transcribed, you get a general feel for the document and sometimes the witnesses can be related and be identified too.

At some places the cost of obtaining a partial transcription of a document is £30 per half hour, versus the cost of the scan of the whole document is sometimes little different in cost, sometimes an image scan of the whole document is cheaper and I can spend time reading it several times (if need be), rather than somebody hurrying to read it and writing it down. Often another person types it in, from another person's handwriting too.

I'm dead against the transcription, you don't want to get back 500 years, then somebody come along and produce an original document, confirming a more recent error, which completely demolishes your tree, making it null and void.

Mark

Yes Mark nobody is disputing that and in fact most of us stress the same but we were discussing the cost involved for the GRO & online providers to digitise, host & index such scans which makes it quite a slow procedure even for the large companies.
Transcripts which are often easy to obtain and cheaply available are a stop gap method of providing the information required.

You mention you are dead against transcription, does that mean you only use the 1911 census?
Does that mean you refuse to use parish registers as most of these are transcripts of day books and the majority of early parish registers are transcripts of the earlier paper parish registers transcribed onto vellum?

We as family historians have to be realistic and use the available records in our research, but that does not mean we have to be careless we attempt to confirm our assumptions by using as many alternative records as possible to confirm our assumptions.
For instance for roughly the first 25 years of my research I had to use my own transcriptions to compile my family tree (as did other similar researchers), these transcriptions were taken from original registers held by the superintendent Registrars and I paid through the nose to access them and transcribe the relevant entry. That availability was stopped in 1974/5.
The reason we did that was because it made our research more accurate than relying on the transcribed copies of copies provided by the GRO.
In a similar manner researchers would transcribe from original parish registers in churches and Diocese Archives or bought microfilm copies of the registers to browse at home.
Since the online companies have been digitising these registers I now have the luxury of being able to add an image of the record on my family history database to confirm research I possible did 40 or 50 years ago for those interested in my research in the future.

In other words yes, it would be good to have all original records available online but we have to be realistic and realise that costs time and money.
In the meantime be thankful the many generous people have given their time and often their money too making information available to others by transcribing them.
Cheers
Guy
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Offline Sloe Gin

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Re: Why no digitisation of birth, mariage and death vital records?
« Reply #47 on: Saturday 24 November 18 13:29 GMT (UK) »
You may be happy in discarding a record based on a signature I certainly would not after 60+ years of research I do not feel qualified to be sure that person x made their signature in a certain manner and I certainly would not claim a historic document was made by an ancestor based on a signature there are far too many variables for me to claim that.

This is a fair point but looking at it the other way round, signatures can confirm that you have found the right person.
UK census content is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk  Transcriptions are my own.

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Why no digitisation of birth, mariage and death vital records?
« Reply #48 on: Saturday 24 November 18 20:03 GMT (UK) »
Hello

I agree Sloe Gin, when signatures are a good match they can be most helpful.

 ----------

Hello Guy,

Trying to track down unindexed records of people, I feel is a far greater priority.

For example a typed University Thesis about Banking (scanned and made freely available online) the Author mentioned my ancestor and occupation along with others.

I contacted the HSBC Banking Archives who acquired that Bank. My ancestor was listed, but unfortunately, any documents confirming places of Birth of old clients, had not been retained in that area. Apparently, these old C19 records were found in a Branch and Archives took them.

These are great finds and had the typed Thesis never been scanned and put online, I would never have known that my ancestor appeared on a list of Bank Customers in the town where he lived and that he could loan money, without higher approval.

Therefore, more indexing is definitely required.

 ---------

It sounds, as though I have been very lucky with the Certified Copies of the BMD held by the Registrar mostly purchased about 20 years ago (many of the Marriages have appeared online as satisfactory images now).

One Example of A Transcription Error
There was one slight problem with one Certificate, where the Registrar wrote 'Farmer' instead of 'Tanner'. However, I sent a polite letter with photocopies of several Street Directories and photocopy of another Certificate and a reply came back on a Compliments slip with a snippet photocopy saying that it could be read as either Farmer or Tanner, but if I wished to and returned the Certificate, the Registrar would issue a replacement Certificate, which they did, due to the several proofs I had supplied.

Mark


Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Why no digitisation of birth, mariage and death vital records?
« Reply #49 on: Thursday 29 November 18 11:06 GMT (UK) »

I don't want a certificate, I merely want the information that it on them. I'm not aware of any law preventing their digitisation, after all, the information is available on a certificate without hindrance.


Is this because you are stuck or have little information or knowledge of your family?

If you are able to, have you considered making contact with relations (perhaps ones you might have been told about, but never met)?

I was already back quite some time, but when I contacted another branch of my family by tracing them in their last known village, up to the late 1980s (in Archives Directories etc), then knocking on a few doors in that village on a nice sunny day (a sunny day always helps, people are more helpful) a lady opposite came out into her front garden, so I went across and asked her and she replied ... oh he has died 1980s but his Daughter still lives at _______ House on the main road. I went there informed the man who I was and after recalling a family event (known by both branches) ... I know who you are ...

Shortly after, we sent photocopies of items I had, who also responded with a large envelope of photocopy items including a few Certificates back to 1876 (my Father knew of the events in the 20th Century, but had never seen those records).

It was most interesting to get confirmation of my researched line too. Since, we have exchanged scans of other items.

Some people don't keep much, but some members of families, try to keep some old items.

Mark

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Why no digitisation of birth, mariage and death vital records?
« Reply #50 on: Thursday 29 November 18 20:34 GMT (UK) »
I only want more:- name, place and date indexing of records along with an Index reference (not transcriptions of the whole records) from which I can order a Certified Copy or a photographic image / scan of the original from the reference given.

Is that all!

What you are asking for is a mammoth task and in a high percentage of time a pointless task.
There are various reasons why it is pointless here are just two examples : Early parish registers seldom give much more detail so it is virtually as quick to transcribe the complete record as it is to extract name, place and date.
There might be one chance of access to the original manuscripts if that is the case why waste it compiling a name, place and date index when one could digitise the entire record?


snip

Hello Guy,

Trying to track down unindexed records of people, I feel is a far greater priority.

For example a typed University Thesis about Banking (scanned and made freely available online) the Author mentioned my ancestor and occupation along with others.

I contacted the HSBC Banking Archives who acquired that Bank. My ancestor was listed, but unfortunately, any documents confirming places of Birth of old clients, had not been retained in that area. Apparently, these old C19 records were found in a Branch and Archives took them.

These are great finds and had the typed Thesis never been scanned and put online, I would never have known that my ancestor appeared on a list of Bank Customers in the town where he lived and that he could loan money, without higher approval.

Therefore, more indexing is definitely required.

Are you volunteering to spend your time and money travelling to where the unindexed manuscripts and papers are held, negotiating with the owner or the archivist to access and index the records?
Have you done that kind of thing before sometimes that takes more time and negotiating than Brexitt.

---------

It sounds, as though I have been very lucky with the Certified Copies of the BMD held by the Registrar mostly purchased about 20 years ago (many of the Marriages have appeared online as satisfactory images now).


This sounds as if you are referring to the images of parish registers that are appearing online, many of which have been digitised from microfilm copies made by the LDS during the mid to late 20th century. The microfilming of these alone took approximately 60 years of toil. This was paid for through the tithes paid by every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), not content with microfilming the records the LDS made them available to anyone in the world through their network of Family History Centers (FHC) for only the cost of postage of the microfilm or microfiche to the FHC.
Even today the LDS have teams visiting archives all over the world digtising records as fast as they can and as with the microfilming this is all paid for through the Church members’ tithes.

Most family historians will agree we would like more of everything but those of us that have been around for many years understand the huge task involved in the production of more.

Cheers
Guy

http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

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Offline clairec666

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Re: Why no digitisation of birth, mariage and death vital records?
« Reply #51 on: Friday 30 November 18 09:54 GMT (UK) »
It really bugs me that in order to gain access to, for example, to the information on a marriage certificate, that I have to buy one for an extraordinary fee. (I know there are indices).

Returning to the original question...

Is the fee "extraordinary"? Sometimes it might feel like you're paying a lot for not much information. It's worse if you're not 100% sure you're ordering the right certificate.

Before the PDF copies brought the cost down, a certificate cost me more than I earn per hour. The costs soon mount up, and I think carefully before I order a certificate. Do I really need it? Can I find the information elsewhere?

Compared to a month's subscription on Findmypast, for example, where you can find heaps of information for your money, then yes, a BMD certificate seems very expensive.

But.... it is what is is. I understand the costs that go into digitising records. I know that everything is much more accessible than it has been in the past. I recently stumbled across my granddad's notebook, where he recorded all his family history research. Slow and painful, to say the least! I'm very thankful for the records and indexes we have available to us today.
Transcribing Essex records for FreeREG.
Current parishes - Burnham, Purleigh, Steeple.
Get in touch if you have any interest in these places!

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Why no digitisation of birth, mariage and death vital records?
« Reply #52 on: Friday 30 November 18 12:16 GMT (UK) »
Good Morning

Point being made was, that it would be a gigantic massive task too, to transcribe each Civil Certificate.

We have Indexes thanks to the massive gigantic efforts of Volunteers of Free BMD and Free BMD itself, which has taken about 20 years to transcribe a short line for each Certificate, (it would probably take 60 years or more for volunteers to transcribe each certificate).

Also for 19th Century GRO registered Births, the GRO Index now gives the Mother's Maiden Surname (when that was given at Birth).

Also quite good Census and other coverage online 19th Century.

Also Family Search too, who are continuing to transcribe more entries in brief, all dates and periods.

 ----------

However, more people are likely to get stuck further back and/or having difficulty pre GRO and Census.

 ----------

I can't prove who the Father was, of George Hood of Selby born about 1784 to 1787, dying 1845. Got some more things we need to see in Yorkshire Archives. Visits so far, unsuccessful, in getting back further.


Both the descendants of John Hood of Selby, Mariner (buried 1819, aged 82 years) and George Hood of Selby, Cooper business, Brewer and Tanner (buried by Quakers as a Non-Member 1845, aged 60 yrs), married into the same GRUBB family, but it isn't a total breakthrough.

Diagram here ...
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=804155.msg6623371#msg6623371

Mark

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Why no digitisation of birth, mariage and death vital records?
« Reply #53 on: Friday 30 November 18 14:48 GMT (UK) »
Good Morning

Point being made was, that it would be a gigantic massive task too, to transcribe each Civil Certificate.

We have Indexes thanks to the massive gigantic efforts of Volunteers of Free BMD and Free BMD itself, which has taken about 20 years to transcribe a short line for each Certificate, (it would probably take 60 years or more for volunteers to transcribe each certificate).

First let me say I support the effort the has been made by FreeBMD and its sister sites FreeReg and FreeCen I even donated a large number of my own transcripts to the project but please don’t think we only have civil BMD indexes because of the effort of the  FreeBMD volunteers.
FreeBMD indexes are copied from the GRO indexes that have been in use since 1837.
One of the reasons there are mistakes in the  FreeBMD indexes is because the original GRO indexes contained errors, as the pages of the indexes wore out sometimes they were re-inked introducing errors and sometimes they were re-written introducing transcription errors, then later they were transcribed again as typescript indexes. This process has been duplicated quite a few times and each time errors and omissions have occurred.

The LDS microfilmed the GRO Indexes (I think the last filming was in 1983 under the title St.Catherine's House Index and was produced on 21500 individual microfiche).
The online GRO index was a new index produced from the registers not copied from the original indexes and was compiled very quickly.

Cheers
Guy
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.