Author Topic: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.  (Read 1070 times)

Offline Braytons

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Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« on: Friday 23 November 18 11:07 GMT (UK) »
Dear Rootschat

My grandmother Mary Elizabeth Amelia Vincent was born 6 Jun 1875.  I have asked about her before, so apologies for going over the same ground again. 

It was the curious case of her being noted as being born in "South of France" in the 1881 census.  (Her brother Robert Richard Vincent was noted as being born in "South America").
I could not find a birth registration record for her.  I came to the conclusion that she was adopted. Supporting this conclusion was that her parents (on paper) were Robert John Vincent 7 Jun 1835 and Mary Yorke 8 Jun 1836, who were married on 8 Jan 1861 and that 10 years elapsed before the first birth in 1871. Plus the mother of Robert was Ellen Friend Vincent née Connolly 7 Oct 1799 - 1878 was a "monthly nurse", living at Silver Street (now Beak St.), Westminster.  She was exactly the right sort of person to deal with unwanted births.   Robert when confronted by the enumerator in the 1881 census said "South of France" knowing that he had no record of a birth. And there the matter rested.  With the happy conclusion that my grandmother was the daughter of a wayward young woman unable to deal with the problem.

Until recently:
Then a near relation treated me to a DNA test.  My understanding of the process of birth is that the child acquires DNA traits from each of the parents.  On Ancestry I have found several "shared matches" and in some cases I have been able to find a common ancestor. 

Thinking about the adoption situation:

I concluded that I should get no links (according to the paper records) to the trees of people who were her forebears  i.e. the family Vincent and Yorke. 

On the other hand (considering the biological parents of Mary Vincent) I should get several links to families who are apparently unrelated to me.  Particularly as I am dealing with my grandma - who is only 2 generations away. In looking at these I ought not to find a connection in the paper records.


The problem there is that the failure to find a link will be mixed in with those where lack of diligence also fails to find a link. 

My questions; is my thought process correct about the linking of families? 

And considering those where there is no apparent link, if I find a female about the right age (born around 1855) in the right area am I likely to identify a specific Mum? 

AND then should I make contact with the any descendant of this Mum? 
Has anyone been in this sticky situation? ::)




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Offline avm228

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #1 on: Friday 23 November 18 11:15 GMT (UK) »
Your DNA findings are hard to follow, sorry!

Are you saying that you have found genetic matches via your DNA to relatives of Mary’s “on paper” parents, whom you would not be genetically related to had she been adopted from outside the family?
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

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Offline avm228

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #2 on: Friday 23 November 18 11:23 GMT (UK) »
...or perhaps you are saying that you have found unexpected matches to apparently unrelated families, and as you cannot otherwise account for them you are hoping to use them to trace Mary’s biological parents?
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline Braytons

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #3 on: Friday 23 November 18 11:32 GMT (UK) »
Hi thank you for your replies!

No I don't think that's what I am saying and sorry for the confusion.

I have not yet found any genetic matches to my grandmother's "paper" mother or father.  This could be because no one related to those families have taken a DNA test, or a match is so weak that I haven't found the link.

I do have a few matches which I can't link to my tree.

I hope that's a bit clearer. :)

Offline avm228

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #4 on: Friday 23 November 18 11:41 GMT (UK) »
If you have had a previous thread on this I don’t want to go over old ground, but why is Mary’s father “Robert” on her baptism, and “George” in the 1881 census and her 1883 school admission record?
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #5 on: Friday 23 November 18 11:54 GMT (UK) »
Good luck ...
I eventually found matches for my grandmother s birth parents
It helped that my mother did the DNA test too...the closer you can get to missing ancestors the better ...also we had the original birth certificate tho not the new married name of her mother and we had name of father from a court case

Also very lucky  that a grandson of grandmas birth mother decided to take the test. He was investigatino paternal side and very surprised to find his grandma had had a daughter before marriage  and a bit sad that his father would never know he wasn't an only child
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid MCDERMID McDiarmid Gardner Jones ,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson ,McKay

Offline avm228

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #6 on: Friday 23 November 18 11:56 GMT (UK) »
Are these the relevant family baptisms, all at St Pancras?


04 May 1873: Mary Augusta Jane Susannah Vincent, b 27 Dec 1872, abode 29 Ossulston St.

20 Sep 1875: Robert Richard Vincent, b 24 Feb 1871, abode 29 Ossulston St.

24 Jul 1876: Mary Eliza Amelia Vincent, b 06 June 1875, abode 35 Clarendon St.


All children of Robert (cab driver) and Mary.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline Braytons

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #7 on: Friday 23 November 18 12:12 GMT (UK) »
Good luck ...
I eventually found matches for my grandmother s birth parents
It helped that my mother did the DNA test too...the closer you can get to missing ancestors the better ...also we had the original birth certificate tho not the new married name of her mother and we had name of father from a court case

Also very lucky  that a grandson of grandmas birth mother decided to take the test. He was investigatino paternal side and very surprised to find his grandma had had a daughter before marriage  and a bit sad that his father would never know he wasn't an only child

Thank you.  It's good to know some people have been successful!

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Finding an adopted child's real parents 1870's.
« Reply #8 on: Friday 23 November 18 12:19 GMT (UK) »
This is  fascinating story
I'm reading the other thread but have only got to page 6maybe you could summarise what you do know

2 things that came up for me is that baptising the children in Uk would be normal if they were a different religion before adopted  or just because they wanted a family ceremony ..who were godparents .?

My grandmother  had a different middle name on birth certificate and  baptism I think because her middle name was used to identify the father and once a judgement for payment had been obtained ed she could baptise her baby with middle name of her own choosing

Second on school records my great grandfather appears in the parent or guardian  column for his little sister ..your George could have been taking his neice to school if his brother was absent or in prison
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid MCDERMID McDiarmid Gardner Jones ,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson ,McKay