Author Topic: Children born out of wedlock  (Read 2275 times)

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,970
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Schoch

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Children born out of wedlock
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 04 December 18 22:13 GMT (UK) »
1st my apologies .. I made the "assumption" that Margaret Shiel was born the same year that she was baptized. 
Now as to naming conventions. I understood the 1st born son being named after the father but the 2nd son,  I did not know that he would be named after the mothers father (if I follow you Bevj).

So I have John/Margaret with children John and Andrew (with a possible missing David).

Then John/Sarah with Robert/Isabel and Janet  (naming convention seems not to be followed here though).
I am still left with Archibald, and no record of his birth or parents (with a naming convention issue as well).

Not sure I am any further forward as Archibald is the one I am trying to prove.   ???

Anyway thanks for the input ...it's back to more digging I think


Richard
Stay in the  Moment

Grainger - Wigton and Newcastle Area
Gibson - Newcastle/Scotland (Roxburgh) Areas
Crisell/Crissell/Chrysel/etc. - Suffolk Area
Schoch - Germany (Öhringen Area)

Offline brigidmac

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,892
  • Computer incompetent but stiil trying
    • View Profile
Re: Children born out of wedlock
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 05 December 18 06:30 GMT (UK) »
You have to find births of infants that mayou have died young too.sometimes a child dies and a later child is given same forename so the children will not appear in order 3rd boyear named after father 3rd girl after her mother but does anyone know trad conventions after that ...I think it does involve great grandparents .If a man remarried his first daughter would be named after new wife's mother. ..but what about the other children .My MacD families often had 12 children so I get to see patterns but also have several cousins in each generation with same names and uncles younger than their nephews etc .when my grandfather was born his eldest brother already had 2 sons
My gp aren't sure broke swith tradition in 1930 and named my father after a man (who had been important in grand dads life but not sure how ....they always joked he was named after milkman but DNA has confirmed I have same blood as the 1850 Macds)It might have been after a naval officeyr who helped financially or had saved his life
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline Elwyn Soutter

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,511
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Children born out of wedlock
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 05 December 18 06:55 GMT (UK) »

You have to find births of infants that mayou have died young too.sometimes a child dies and a later child is given same forename so the children will not appear in order 3rd boyear named after father 3rd girl after her mother but does anyone know trad conventions after that ...I think it does involve great grandparents .


There was a tradition of naming children according to the following rules:

The 1st son was usually named after the father's father
  The 2nd son was usually named after the mother's father
   The 3rd son was usually named after the father
    The 4th son was usually named after the father's eldest brother
     The 5th son was usually named after the mother's eldest brother
 The 1st daughter was usually named after the mother's mother
  The 2nd daughter was usually named after the father's mother
   The 3rd daughter was usually named after the mother
    The 4th daughter was usually named after the mother's eldest sister
     The 5th daughter was usually named after the father's eldest sister

The problem with relying too heavily on naming patterns is that, apart from the fact that not all families followed it, there are lots of things that can upset it.  In addition to a deceased child’s name being reused later in the line, sometimes if a close relative had just died, their name was used for the next child out of respect. And so on.

Elwyn


Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,970
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: Children born out of wedlock
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 05 December 18 07:22 GMT (UK) »
1st my apologies .. I made the "assumption" that Margaret Shiel was born the same year that she was baptized.
Which is one of the reasons why you need to look at the original document to see what it says about the baptism.

Quote
Now as to naming conventions. I understood the 1st born son being named after the father but the 2nd son,  I did not know that he would be named after the mothers father (if I follow you Bevj).
The tradition is

First son after paternal grandfather
Second son after maternal grandfather
Third son after father
First daughter after maternal grandmother
Second daughter after paternal grandmother
Third daughter after mother
There are varying versions of it after that, some involving great-grandparents and some involving (great-)uncles/aunts but it isn't infallible. There are also other things, like the first child baptised by a new minister being named after him, or a child being named after doctor/schoolmaster/landowner or someone else outisde the family whom the parents wish to compliment.

Quote
I am still left with Archibald, and no record of his birth or parents (with a naming convention issue as well).
Is all you know about Archibald for certain that his father is John, from his marriage certificate? Why do you think that either Margaret Shiel or Sarah Robertson is Archibald's mother? Are you 'assuming' because there are no other possibles, or do you have any definite evidence to support this hypothesis?

Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Schoch

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Children born out of wedlock
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 05 December 18 09:53 GMT (UK) »
Forfarian,

In answer to your question regarding Archibald.  I have his marriage record (Newcastle) that shows a Andrew Gibson was a witness (also Andrews marriage in Newcastle showing Archibald as witness). I have census for both showing their births in Roxburghshire (Roxburgh).

From ScotlandsPeople I have a record of Andrews parents as John/Margaret, so I have made a tentative connection that Archibald's parents were one of the same. However I can find no record of Archibalds birth in either Scotland (Roxburghshire areas) or in the Scottish Borders. The two could just as soon be cousins and not brothers.

As for the John/Sarah marriage.. well they were married near that area and both died early, suggesting the children might have been farmed out to relatives etc.  But neither seem to have had sons named Archibald or Andrew and both were born prior to their marriage anyway, hence my original question regarding children born out of wedlock.

'tis a vexing problem indeed.


Thanks

Richard

Naming conventions can be helpful sometimes but do not seem to be as reliable as some might suggest.
Stay in the  Moment

Grainger - Wigton and Newcastle Area
Gibson - Newcastle/Scotland (Roxburgh) Areas
Crisell/Crissell/Chrysel/etc. - Suffolk Area
Schoch - Germany (Öhringen Area)

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,970
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: Children born out of wedlock
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 05 December 18 12:48 GMT (UK) »
From ScotlandsPeople I have a record of Andrews parents as John/Margaret, so I have made a tentative connection that Archibald's parents were one of the same.
Yes, I see that.

But how do you know for certain that this particular couple are the parents of either Andrew or Archibald? Is there any independent evidence to corroborate this?

You have Archibald Gibson, aged 57 on census day (31 March) 1851, born Roxburgh. So if his age is accurate he was born between 1 April 1793 and 31 March 1794, and somewhere in the County of Roxburgh. You also have Andrew Gibson, aged 66, born Roxborough. If his age is accurate he was born between 1 April 1784 and 31 March 1785. The 1841 only says they were born in Scotland, and gives Andrew's age as 50 and Archibald's as 45. Adults' ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years in 1841, so if Andrew's age is accurate he could have been anything from 50 to 54, and born between 8 June 1786 and 7 June 1791. This does not overlap with the 1851 information, so one of them has to be wrong. Archibald's age in 1841 is consistent with his age in 1851. Neither of these censuses contains any other clues that I can see.

Scotland's People lists just one Andrew Gibson baptised in Roxburgh between 1780 and 1799, and that is the one you have found, mother Margaret Shiel. His age in 1851 is inconsistent with a birth in 1790, but his age in 1841 is consistent.

There are 23 Andrew Gibsons and 5 Archibald Gibsons aged 40 to 60 in the 1841 census in Scotland.  There are 11 deaths of Andrew Gibsons born 1790 plus or minus 10 years, and two Archibalds, after 1855. Four of the Andrews and both Archibalds' mothers were not surnamed Shiel, but have you checked the other seven Andrews to make sure none of them was the one born in 1790 to Margaret Shiel?



Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Schoch

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Children born out of wedlock
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 05 December 18 13:31 GMT (UK) »
Forfarian,

The nearest Archibald I have found is in Edinburgh born to Archibald Gibson and Grace Hogg (dob 3 July 1794). But I think that may be too far away for that time period as most were born/married/died in the same locality.
The problem is that I can't find a birth record for my Archibald, and need an accurate location to get a chance of locating one. With Andrew, as you have found, there are more than a few of them to trace. But however I have not got all of them yet I think.

Appreciate the help...Thanks

richard
Stay in the  Moment

Grainger - Wigton and Newcastle Area
Gibson - Newcastle/Scotland (Roxburgh) Areas
Crisell/Crissell/Chrysel/etc. - Suffolk Area
Schoch - Germany (Öhringen Area)