James Barr and Margaret McTernan Marriage

[wobblybetty]

I'm trying to find my Irish roots through James Barr, my Great Grandfather. Apparently he married Margaret McTernan on 31st December 1918 in Loanhead, Lasswade, Scotland, when he was 26, so born in 1892. My brother has seen his Marriage Certificate which stated he was born in Ireland, but details of his Father or Mother were left blank.
I have searched ALL available sites, am on Ancestry.co.uk, FamilySearch.org and I cannot find a copy of the Marriage Certificate. His occupation was listed as Coal Miner, so I am trying to search in that area too.

I'm wondering if James was an orphan, but don't know how to find him. James and Margaret had a son, James Butler McTernan, who was born on 14th March 1915 in Edinburgh. Margaret registered his birth, so his birth certificate lists him as illegitimate. I'm currently searching the War Records at Kew to see if there is a reason they didn't marry for three years. Of course, James Barr may not be the Father and Barr may not be his surname..

Would love some help to point me in the right direction!

[Rosinish]

Hi, Welcome to Rootschat!

This is from the index at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (Pay-per-View) site.

BARR JAMES
MCTIERNAN MARGARET
1919
691/ 2 Lasswade

It may be an idea to ask your relative for a copy of the above marriage cert. & take note of everything on it, ages, occupations, addresses, witnesses, where married, everything you can glean then try to find him in 1911?

Annie

Add, I don't think a marriage cert. would give where he was born unless his 'usual residence' was an address in Ireland?

[MonicaL]

Welcome to RC from me too 

Scottish marriage certs do not show places of birth for bride and groom (except for one year only, 1855). Maybe he gave an Irish address as his normal place of residence at the time of the marriage?

Would be worth while you rechecking the cert. Also, a check of his death registration may also help with further details.

Monica

[Rosinish]

James and Margaret had a son, James Butler McTernan, who was born on 14th March 1915 in Edinburgh. Margaret registered his birth, so his birth certificate lists him as illegitimate.

I don't see a marriage for James Jnr. (with middle name Butler) on SP, do you have details of him, a marriage & what info. is on it regarding a/his father?
Does he give James Barr as his father, was James still alive?

Annie

[wobblybetty]

Hi, Welcome to Rootschat!

This is from the index at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (Pay-per-View) site.

BARR JAMES
MCTIERNAN MARGARET
1919
691/ 2 Lasswade

It may be an idea to ask your relative for a copy of the above marriage cert. & take note of everything on it, ages, occupations, addresses, witnesses, where married, everything you can glean then try to find him in 1911?

Annie

Add, I don't think a marriage cert. would give where he was born unless his 'usual residence' was an address in Ireland?

Thank you Annie! I wondered if the surname McTernan was spelt correctly. I did search on that website, but it didn't come up. I have some credits, so will look again-thank you!

My brother said he saw the Marriage Certificate on-line but didn't bother to get a copy of it

[wobblybetty]

James and Margaret had a son, James Butler McTernan, who was born on 14th March 1915 in Edinburgh. Margaret registered his birth, so his birth certificate lists him as illegitimate.

I don't see a marriage for James Jnr. (with middle name Butler) on SP, do you have details of him, a marriage & what info. is on it regarding a/his father?
Does he give James Barr as his father, was James still alive?



Annie

Well, that's an interesting thing, as again, my brother states that my Grandfather James Butler McTernan, married Winifred May Kelly in September 1932 (Winifred was born 1st May 1912) but I don't have a Marriage Certificate, so I can't confirm his Father's name. He would be only 17 years old, if his birth date is correct...

I know from my Dad's sister ( daughter of James Butler McTernan) that her Grandad was a red-headed Irishman who died young.

I did find a James Barr in the 1911 Census, but I cant be sure he's the right one!

Thanks for your help.

[wobblybetty]

Hi, Welcome to Rootschat!

This is from the index at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (Pay-per-View) site.

BARR JAMES
MCTIERNAN MARGARET
1919
691/ 2 Lasswade

It may be an idea to ask your relative for a copy of the above marriage cert. & take note of everything on it, ages, occupations, addresses, witnesses, where married, everything you can glean then try to find him in 1911?

Annie

Add, I don't think a marriage cert. would give where he was born unless his 'usual residence' was an address in Ireland?

Thank you Annie! I wondered if the surname McTernan was spelt correctly. I did search on that website, but it didn't come up. I have some credits, so will look again-thank you!

My brother said he saw the Marriage Certificate on-line but didn't bother to get a copy of it

I've just downloaded the Marriage Certificate! My bother had said 1918, so now I know they were married in 1919. The section for Father/Mother have a line crossed through and blank. The address is the same for both of them, Oak Villa, Edinburgh. Margaret is on the 2011 Census living at Oak Villa in Edinburgh, but no mention of James Barr then.

'In 1911 census they lived in Oakvilla, (Joseph – husband 62, Ann 45, Robert 25, Patrick 20, Margaret 13, Helen 8, Edward 3)
In 1915 Valuation rolls. Joseph ran a business from Foundry Lane
Margaret went off to work elsewhere as a servant (we suspect 32 Melville St, Edinburgh) when her little brother and sister were old enough. Margaret gave birth in 32 Melville St, possibly the big posh house now the Italian Embassy.

31st December 1918 Margaret McTiernan married James Barr
She (domestic servant, spinster) married a James Barr, a coalminer who also gives his address as Oak Villa. He is only 26 and Margaret 24, maybe he was a lodger? They both live in her family home Oak Villa, anyway. His family details are blank ie he does not know or say who his parents were. Margaret's stepbother Robert Hughes is a witness.

I am going to guess James Barr is possibly the father and Margaret married him after a bit of a family row as he was an unknown orphan and the Hughes were relatively well off. Note below that James Barr and Margaret married 3 years after James Butler was born. There is the possibility of incest given the McTernan name was kept for James Butler McTernan.
14th March 1915 James Butler McTernan born 32, Melville Street, Edinburgh'

So, still don't know where James Barr came from!

[Jamjar]

There is the possibility of incest given the McTernan name was kept for James Butler McTernan.

What a very odd thing to assume.

It is more likely that he was illegitimate and, therefore, has been given his mother’s surname, which was common occurrence.

James was a very common name and it could, possibly, simply be a coincidence that the child and future husband have the same christian names.

James Butler died Surrey, England: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZQ-GKW7

Winfred’s death: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZ8-TXHQ

They married in England:

Sep 1932 Scarbro' 9d 949
McTERNAN James B
KELLY Winifred M

Jamjar

[wobblybetty]

There is the possibility of incest given the McTernan name was kept for James Butler McTernan.

What a very odd thing to assume.

It is more likely that he was illegitimate and, therefore, has been given his mother’s surname, which was common occurrence.

James was a very common name and it could, possibly, simply be a coincidence that that the child and future husband have the same christian names.

James Butler died Surrey, England: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZQ-GKW7

Jamjar

Hi Jamjar,

Here is my brother's research:

'1896 Ann McTernan married Joseph Hughes foundryman /platemaker
Ann went on to have another 5 children, 3 of whom died as small kids. Total of 8 children.

They all lived as the Hughes family in “Oak Villa”, Edgefield Road, Loanhead. It had 3 rooms with more than 1 window.
In 1901 census they lived at Foundry Lane. (Joseph 50, Ann 45, Robert 16, James 15, Mary 3, Joseph 1, Margaret McTernan step daughter 6, Joseph 81). 4 rooms with more than 1 window.
Where is Patrick aged 10???
In 1911 census they lived in Oakvilla, (Joseph – husband 62, Ann 45, Robert 25, Patrick 20, Margaret 13, Helen 8, Edward 3)
In 1915 Valuation rolls. Joseph ran a business from Foundry Lane
Margaret went off to work elsewhere as a servant (we suspect 32 Melville St, Edinburgh) when her little brother and sister were old enough. Margaret gave birth in 32 Melville St, possibly the big posh house now the Italian Embassy.'

I'm guessing he assumes James Hughes from the 1901 Census is the culprit! But Margaret was a step-daughter, her Father having died and her Mother re-marrying. No mention of James in the 1911 Census, as I presume he had left home by then.

My assumption is that Margaret got pregnant whilst working as a Domestic Servant and she met James Barr after James Butler was born. Could be that the name Butler came from the birth Father?

It still doesn't help me trace James Barr, but I am looking at mining records for the Loanhead Colliery at the moment, to see if he's listed there.

Thank you for my Grandfathers death certificate information!