Grangee Baptism Records? (re Thomas Scott, Eliza Keenan, Hugh Blane)

[Rakiura John]

I'm  interested in Thomas Scott of Grangee (Donaghadee, Co. Down), Carpenter and his wife Eliza Keenan (Kenan), married 1855 in Ballycopeland. They had numerous pre-Civil Regn children (Grace, Hugh Blain, Thomas Blain, Jane Young), and a son in 1864 whose birth was registered as Samuel but the record notes he was baptised as Robert Blain. They also had a daughter whose birth was registered as Susan Lindsay in 1866 who I subsequently can't find.
The family emigrated to New  Zealand in 1871 - pass. list for ship “Wild Deer” has Thomas Scott & Eliza Scott, and children Grace, Hugh, Thomas, Jane, & Mary (b1868), but it seems 2 children were left behind (perhaps unfit to travel) as the 1873 pass. list for ship “Allahabad” has mother Elizabeth Scott returning to New Zealand with children Robert aged 9 (so b1864) and Catherine aged 7 (so b1866). I can't find any Civil Regn birth for this Catherine, and as I have found Sarah Lindsay's birth in 1866, I suspect they are the same person – the parents again giving a different name on baptism. But I need to check this. Can anyone please direct me to where I might find the baptism records for children born in Grangee? They were Presbyterian. As they were married in Ballycopeland, perhaps some children were born there - any idea where Ballycopeland baptisms might be found?
When Eliza Scott travelled back to NZ in 1873, she was accompanied by Hugh Blane who seems somehow closely connected with this family (the above male children all include Blain in their names). Hugh's death record in NZ indicates he was born c1811. Griffith's Valuation has him as a tenant in Grangee in 1863. The marriage of Thomas Scott & Eliza Keenan gives their respective fathers as Samuel Scott and Thomas Keenan – but I wonder if one of those fathers died young and Hugh Blane married the widow thereby becoming step-father of either Thomas Scott or Eliza Keenan. It would be interesting to see if he was a witness to any of the childrens' baptisms.
Any suggestions re further researching this family also appreciated.

[Elwyn Soutter]

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, after which she'd attend her husband’s. So the church where a couple marry is not necessarily the same place their children will be baptised in (though it might be). Ballycopeland appears to have lost most of it’s early records. They have baptisms for 1773 to 1818. (They are with the Presbyterian Historical Society in Belfast). Then there’s nothing till 1906. Other nearby Presbyterian churches are Ballyfrenis (baptisms from 1862); Carrowdore (1843), 1st Donaghadee (1793), Donagahdee Shore St (1849) and Millisle (1773). Apart from the ones in the PBS, copies of all those records are held in PRONI in Belfast. They are not on-line there, and you need to go in person to look them up. Or get someone else to do that for you:

Researchers in the PRONI area: http://sgni.net

Grangee National School attendance records are also held in PRONI under ref SCH/697. I don’t know what years they cover, but you might want to get someone to look them up to see what Scott children attended in the period 1855 – 1873.

[wivenhoe]

"Allalbad"  1873
BLAIN Hugh                50yrs
SCOTT Catherine         48yrs
SCOTT Robert               9yrs
SCOTT Catherine          7yrs

You need to see this death certificate -
NZ BDM death
1891/1697   BLAIN  Hugh   80Y



These instances of Bla* with SCOTT -

1907/23171   SCOTT   Frank Blair          parents   Kate   / Francis Arthur (birth)
1880/15488   SCOTT   Margaret Blane    parents    Margaret /   Thomas    (birth)


1879/101           CHALMERS Jane              marr.   SCOTT  Hugh Blain   
1907/1662   CABLE Winifred Nellie      marr.   SCOTT Thomas Blain   

1967/41743   SCOTT   Frank    Blair   60Y     (death)
1963/32115   SCOTT   Thomas Blain   83Y     (death)

I suspect that there is some uncertainty here. Are they two different names...BLAIR family and BLANE family?

Can you please list the baptism records, Ireland,  that you have found, with all details.

[Rakiura John]

Thanks Elwyn. Good to know Ballycopeland baptisms aren't available for that period. Regarding Grangee baptisms, I take it there was no church there so that's why you have given me the names of  the other nearby churches. Good idea about the School records, I'll need to think about how I can get them looked at.

[Rakiura John]

Thanks Wivenhoe. The 1891 death is certainly the one – I found the Funeral Notice [Temuka Leader, 26 Mar 1891] this morning under Hugh Blair, even though the death is registered as Hugh Blain. The Funeral Notice reads “The friends of Thomas Scott are respectfully invited to attend the funeral of his late Uncle, Hugh Blair, which will leave his residence for the Geraldine Cemetery … etc”. As Hugh's surname isn't Scott, he would be a maternal uncle, so that now tells me Thomas Scott's parents were Samuel Scott & [unknown] Blain. Progress.

I think I'm on top of the family descendants here in NZ. Some of those you list are connected, and some aren't. Blane, Blain, Blaine, & Blair all seem to be used with carefree abandon. Even Hugh was Blane in Griffith's Valn and Blain on the Allahabad list.

I don't have any Ireland baptisms at all. The existence, full names, and ages (only approximate in the case of pre-Civil Regn) of the children has been determined from the passenger lists and subsequent records here in NZ.

[Elwyn Soutter]

Grangee isn’t very big. It doesn’t have it’s own church. It’s just farmland. There’s no village or shops there. In the 1901 census there were just 22 houses with a total of 91 residents. 3 Church of Ireland, plus some United Free Church of Scotland.  The rest (the majority) were Presbyterian. So you can tell from that snapshot that almost the entire community originated in Scotland. Probably in the 1600s.

Presbyterians in Ireland don’t use the parish system, and so which church you attend is not necessarily the nearest. It’s a matter of personal choice. I’ve listed all the mainstream Presbyterian churches in the immediate area. I don’t know where the United Free congregation met. (They were secession Presbyterians that separated from the mainstream Presbyterian Church over doctrinal differences as also happened in Scotland with the Free Church of Scotland). There were a few of their churches in this part of Ireland and they often got their Minsters supplied by the Free Kirk in Edinburgh. Their records have not always survived.

Where a surname appears as a middle name in a Presbyterian family it was often the name of a relative or a person the family respected. Wife’s maiden name was an obvious choice but sometimes it was some relative or the Minister. That sort of thing. Elizabeth’s marriage certificate says she was a spinster, so you can rule out it being her maiden name, but there is probably some family connection there. I note that Thomas isn’t listed in Griffiths in Grangee but he obviously lived there for some years. So perhaps he and his family stayed with the Blane family? Grangee is the family residence for Susan’s birth certificate for example, in June 1866.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03522/2296036.pdf

The Valuation Revision records show the Grangee house remaining in Hugh Blane’s name till 1875 when it changed to David Young. That roughly fits with his journey to NZ. Griffith’s clerks were often out by a year or two.

[wivenhoe]

Can you list the information on the passenger list "Wild Deer".  What is the port of embarkation for this voyage to NZ?

What documents do you have for the BDM events in the lives of the SCOTTs and BLAINs mentioned here?

If you have not seen any baptism records where did you find this information -

".. a son in 1864 whose birth was registered as Samuel but the record notes he was baptised as Robert Blain. They also had a daughter whose birth was registered as Susan Lindsay in 1866 who I subsequently can't find. "

[aghadowey]

The 1891 death is certainly the one – I found the Funeral Notice [Temuka Leader, 26 Mar 1891] this morning under Hugh Blair, even though the death is registered as Hugh Blain. The Funeral Notice reads “The friends of Thomas Scott are respectfully invited to attend the funeral of his late Uncle, Hugh Blair, which will leave his residence for the Geraldine Cemetery … etc”. As Hugh's surname isn't Scott, he would be a maternal uncle, so that now tells me Thomas Scott's parents were Samuel Scott & [unknown] Blain. Progress.

Actually, Hugh Blain could have been an uncle by marriage, great-uncle or just a more distant relative/family friend known as 'uncle.'

[Rakiura John]

Thanks Elwyn. All good background info for me. I hadn't heard of the Valn Revisions but have now done some further googling and got on to them. They look like they're going to be a useful resource.

Wivenhoe. The Wild Deer sailed from Greenock, Scotland to Port Chalmers, Otago, NZ. The passenger list is here  http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~ourstuff/genealogy/PassListO-Z.htm

As Samuel/Robert Blain b1864, Susan Lindsay (= Catherine?) b1866, and Mary b1868 were born after Civil Regn came into being, their births registrations are on-line here https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/supp_births/2347809x.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03522/2296036.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1868/03446/2265273.pdf

You will see the final column of the standard Birth Registration Page is headed “Baptismal Name, if added after registration of birth, and Date”. This column is generally empty but not in the case of Samuel.

The above are the only Ireland BDM registrations I have. I have yet to find the deaths of Thomas Scott and Elizabeth Keenan.