Author Topic: Sarah Smith  (Read 4971 times)

Offline sasarina

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Sarah Smith
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 22 December 18 06:29 GMT (UK) »
Thanking you,  I am trying to establish who married Thomas Weavers, Sarah Lake or Sarah Smith, the Sarah Smith is my first candidate as the birthplace of Hertfordshire also matches, if it was Sarah Smith, Hertfordshire then he would not be related? Sarah Lake was 16 when transported so if it was her who married Thomas Weavers she would have been 60 y/o not 92 y/o.

Just one last question please? Do you anything about Wikipedia? where does the info come from? is it reliable?

There is a story about Thomas and Sarah Weavers, harbouring a bushranger named John Piesley,  he was eventually hanged at Bathurst.

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline Jamjar

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,924
  • My Scottish GGGrandmother-Grace Jardine - Morrison
    • View Profile
Re: Sarah Smith
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 22 December 18 07:20 GMT (UK) »
As Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, even you, it isn’t necessarily correct.

The universities I have study at, do not consider it an acceptable reference item in bibliography lists.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:FAQ/Overview

Jamjar

Atkinson; Badier; Cameron; Grant; Howie; Jardine; Jenkins; Kerr; Lawardorn; Lee; Linton; Lonie; McConnell; Morgan; Morrison; Murphy; O'Leary; Paton; Pratt; Robb; Williams

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline majm

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,266
  • NSW 1806 Bowman Flag Ecce signum.
    • View Profile
Re: Sarah Smith
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 22 December 18 08:19 GMT (UK) »
 :) 

Yes,  Jamjar is spot on.   :)

I was expecting this thread to have moved over to the Australia board, where it would catch the eyes there of the regulars.

Anyways, here's some info I have typed up. The following is somewhat dis-jointed, I apologise, but I am rushing.  There’s a deal more I can type up, but I have no spare moments.

I am basically eliminating the two girls you have under consideration who arrived on the Broxbornebury.   Sorry  ::)

I have already shown that the Sarah BLADES who married George SMITH is NOT your lass.


Parramatta New South Wales, Australia
Many of St John’s Church of England parish registers for Baptisms, Marriages, Burials have been digitised and uploaded to Ancestry. 

This marriage basically eliminates the convicted lass.

A marriage at St Johns C of E Parramatta.
No. 464
William SHERRIES, free, aged 33, of the Parish of St Johns, Parramatta and Sarah SMITH of the Parish of St John Parramatta by the Broxbornbury, aged 27 were married in this Church by Banns, this Sixth Day of April in the year One Thousand eight Hundred and fifteen, by Rev Samuel MARSDEN. 

So of your three candidates, - there’s still  Sarah LAKE. ;)  ;)  ;)

Several Baptisms at St Johns C of E Parramatta


Susannah, daughter of George PALMER and Sarah LAKE, born 10 Sept 1809. Baptised 1 October 1809 by Rev Richard Jones, St Johns (C of E) Parramatta.  (this baptism may have been indexed under PALMER ! )
Mary Ann, daughter of William SMITH & Sarah his wife was Born March 1815 and Christened May 14, 1815. Registered Same day by Samuel Marsden.
Census with a Sarah SMITH, her children, and a Thomas WEAVERS
NSW 1828 Census, Prospect 
In the household of a Sarah SMITH, aged 38, who was Free by Servitude, and who had arrived per Aeolis 1809, under a sentence of 7 years were:
Son, John, 18 years, B.C. (born in the colony)
Daughter, Charlotte, 16 years, B.C.
Daughter, Mary Ann, 14 years, B.C.
Daughter, Elizabeth, 12 years, B.C.
Son, William, 5 years, B.C.
Son, James, 18 months, B.C.
AND
Thomas WEAVERS 32 years, Free by Servitude, arrived per Shipley 1816, 7 years, Labourer,
Thomas BRUCE, 51 years Free by Servitude, arrived per Baring, 1819, 7 years, Labourer,
ALL were Protestant.
NOTE,
no mention of Sarah’s husband, but Thomas WEAVERS was already working for Sarah.     Sarah SMITH signed off on the Census document with her x mark.


Earlier I typed up the marriage of Sarah and Thomas.


Eliminating Sarah BLADES
So the Sarah who married George SMITH in 1818 was NOT the Sarah who was transported under the sentence of Life.  The Sarah who married George SMITH in 1818 was a widow with young children. 

 :)

JM


:D
27 May 1818, marriage C of E, Rev William Cowper
George SMITH, aged 38, a bachelor, of Sydney, a Shoemaker (he signed)
and
Sarah BLADES, aged 35, a widow, of Sydney (she made her X mark)
Witnesses William Brown (X mark)
Mary Tristram (signed)

JM

I think a Thomas WEAVERS married a Sarah SMITH 19 Sept 1833
and
I think a Thomas George, son of a Thomas and Sarah WEAVERS was born 28 Oct 1833 and baptised C of E 12 January 1834 by Rev Richard HILL.  Thomas and Sarah were of Castlereagh St, Sydney. He a carter.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCT-4BH  marriage, look at the status

ADD  so you are looking at Sydney, September 1833 and earlier for a Mrs Sarah SMITH.   :) but as to when and where she was married to Mr Smith ? 

JM
 

I wonder who married Thomas WEAVERS, per the Shipley ... ie who was that lass, Sarah SMITH ... :)

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 

Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.

Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   

All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline sasarina

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Sarah Smith
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 22 December 18 09:01 GMT (UK) »
Thanks so much, I am not a wiz kid re Roots chat, should I move it to the Aussie Board? if so can some please advise how to
Once again thanking you got your wonderful help

Offline majm

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,266
  • NSW 1806 Bowman Flag Ecce signum.
    • View Profile
Re: Sarah Smith
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 22 December 18 23:19 GMT (UK) »
Thomas WEAVER/S per the Shipley (2) arriving 18 Nov 1818 to Sydney.
On the 1822 General Muster, he was Assigned to a William BRADBURY, Liverpool
10 Feb 1825 there’s a Col Sec letter showing Thomas WEAVERS per the Shipley had been in employment of William BRADBURY of Campbelltown from January 1821.
On the 1825 General Muster, he was Free by Servitude and working for a William SMITH at Parramatta.
I have previously typed up the 1828 sighting of Thomas WEAVERS per the Shipley and Sarah Smith and her children, including Mary Ann and William, but NO sighting of Sarah SMITH's husband.  :)

Re the 1841 death of a Sarah SMITH at the hospital, Parramatta.  The INDEX has Sarah SMITH, per the Eolus, death 20 March 1841.  Reel 690, page 193.    The INDEX does not give any indication of IF that Sarah arrived as Sarah SMITH or she became SMITH after arrival.    I have found the digitised image, and that image does NOT give any further info either, - not even her Convict Indent number, no age, no date of conviction, NOTHING further.  Ship of arrival clearly recorded as Eolus. 

There’s also several Thomas WEAVER/S chaps… but I can see that the Sarah WEAVERS, widow of Thomas, was twice married, and had children by both husbands…
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62519113  Bathurst Free Press 28 Feb 1852.
Cattle Stealing.
Henry Alexander was charged with having on the 6th December, at Mount Macquarie, stolen
one cow, of the value of 40s., the property of Mr. Thomas Smith, commonly called Thomas Weavers. The prisoner pleaded not guilty and was defended by Mr. Holroyd. William Smith, or Weavers deposed, that he missed the cow on the 6th December last, that he is the step-son of Thomas Weavers, and usually goes by the name of his step-father, 

 :)


https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/convicts/indexes


JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 

Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.

Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   

All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline sasarina

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Sarah Smith
« Reply #32 on: Sunday 23 December 18 06:33 GMT (UK) »
I have been searching Sarah Smith and William Sherries
It appears he was a convict transported on the Admiral Gambier 1808
At his marriage in 1815, it is noted he is free, he would have served his 7 year sentence
There is a death notice for a William Sherris in 1823, I wonder if it is the same person?
Could Sarah Smith on the Broxbornebury remarried under the name Smith?
I am still wondering if this Sarah from Hertfordshire, arrival on the Brox. is the one that married Thomas Weavers, as all the info. from the death cert matches?
I can't find another Sarah that matches? 

Offline majm

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,266
  • NSW 1806 Bowman Flag Ecce signum.
    • View Profile
Re: Sarah Smith
« Reply #33 on: Sunday 23 December 18 08:17 GMT (UK) »
I have been searching Sarah Smith and William Sherries
It appears he was a convict transported on the Admiral Gambier 1808
At his marriage in 1815, it is noted he is free, he would have served his 7 year sentence
There is a death notice for a William Sherris in 1823, I wonder if it is the same person?
Could Sarah Smith on the Broxbornebury remarried under the name Smith?
I am still wondering if this Sarah from Hertfordshire, arrival on the Brox. is the one that married Thomas Weavers, as all the info. from the death cert matches?
I can't find another Sarah that matches?

Hi

I don’t see that it is sensible to confirm that the mother of your Mary Ann Smith who married in 1830 to Charles LEWIS was a convict who arrived in NSW per the Broxbornebury  in 1815, if you are basing her identification on the information Mary Ann’s brother gave in 1876 to the funeral director when organising his mum’s funeral.   

I think it is very important to remember that the family history information given on a New South Wales death certificate is NOT first hand information, and if given by a family member, was given to a funeral director while organising the funeral. 

From the link I provided earlier,  I read that Sarah WEAVERS’ d.c. was reference #4820/1876, and that the informant was James SMITH, her son.

I think he was likely to have not had much formal education for he signed with his mark.   So he was relying on memory, at a time of grief, and when also looking after his grieving siblings, their partners, and all of Sarah’s grandchildren, great grandchildren, neighbours and friends, organising a funeral, in an era before the telephone, motorcar, macadamised roads, and the like.   James resided at Reedy Creek, Blayney.   Thomas George WEAVERS, his half-brother, was likely the head of his own household at Brilliant St, Bathurst, which is where Sarah died.  I confirm that Thomas G WEAVERS is listed at that address on the Electoral Roll for 1870. 


So I have quickly considered some of the available information gleaned from the d.c. available at the website I posted earlier; here are some of the details posted re that 1876 d.c:
Text: 1876/004820
Date of death: 21 Jul 1876 at Brilliant Street Bathurst
Sarah Weavers, a widow age 92
Cause of death: old age
Parents: unknown
Informant: James Smith (who made his X mark) a farmer and grazier of Reedy Creek Blayney
Buried: 24 Jul 1876 Bathurst, Church of England
Born Herefordshire England, 61 years in NSW
Married (1) Prospect NSW to John Smith, children William age about 56, Mary age about 54, Susan age about 52, James age about 51, 10 deceased, sexes unknown
Married (2) Sydney NSW to Thomas Weavers at age 33, children Thomas 42, 2 males deceased


James knew that Sarah had been twice married. 

The d.c. does not give her age at first marriage, nor her birth surname, (although the d.c. allows for that info to be provided)…

** but it does have John SMITH as her first husband, and that they were married at Prospect NSW and names the surviving children as William (abt 56), Mary (abt 54) Susan (abt 52), James (abt 51) and 10 had not survived.
** and it does have Thomas WEAVERS as her second husband, and that they married when she was aged 33, and there was one surviving child, Thomas, aged 42 – 2 males had not survived.

James knew information about his siblings, including his half brother, Thomas.
1876 less 42 years = Thomas born about 1834.   Yes, baptism confirms this
1876 - 92 years = Sarah born 1784 … so she was aged about 50 when Thomas was born…
1876 - 51 = James born abt 1825
1876 – 52 = Susan born abt 1824
1876 – 54 = Mary born abt 1822
1876 – 56 = William born abt 1820 

So, to me, the question becomes - how accurate is the information that James knew ….
 
– was his father’s name John?   I had understood that James’ father was William SMITH …
-   Your Mary Anne SMITH, was she born about 1822 – she married in 1830,  and in that era, the minimum age for marriage was 12 for females and 14 for males. 

I am concerned that you are relying on ‘Herefordshire’ and ’61 years’ in NSW ahead of the information that can be found in the NSW Archives and which has been made available via NSW State Archives in partnership with various commercial websites.    I am concerned that you are not validating the other information available about the lass on the Broxbornebury. 

If Mr Sherris' died (1823 or otherwise),  and his widow remarried, she would marry under his surname.   The link I gave you for the 1833 marriage to Thomas WEAVERS clearly shows you that the bride was named as Sarah SMITH, and the transcriber/indexer has noted 'MARRIED' as in that's Sarah's married surname, not her birth surname.   

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 

Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.

Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   

All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline sasarina

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Sarah Smith
« Reply #34 on: Sunday 23 December 18 09:56 GMT (UK) »
My Mary Ann Smith was born in 1815 to a William Smith and a Sarah. possibly Sarah Lake, Sarah's
Father John Lake born abt 1760 in Devon, mother Susannah Eales born abt 1760 Buckfastleigh, Devon.

Mary Ann married Charles Lewis in 1830,  Charlotte, her sister, was a witness along with Thomas Galliott.
The following year 1831 Charlotte married Thomas Galliott and Charles Lewis was a witness along with Thomas's mother, I have no issue with these records.

This is where I am confused, because this Sarah Lake was born Devon, she was convicted at Devon Quarter Sessions
She was abt 16y/o and was transported on the Aeolus arrival 26th Jan, 1809, none of this seems to marry up with the death cert. of Sarah Weavers?

I am trying to confirm who married this Thomas Weavers? (is he my ancestor)

There is an obituary for Sarah Weavers death Bathurst 1876, once again does not marry up to Sarah Lake

copyright image removed

Offline Dundee

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,192
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Sarah Smith
« Reply #35 on: Sunday 23 December 18 10:46 GMT (UK) »
There is an obituary for Sarah Weavers death Bathurst 1876, once again does not marry up to Sarah Lake

WEAVERS - July 21, at her residence, Stewart-street, Bathurst, Mrs. Weavers, relict of the late J. Weavers, Esq., dearly beloved mother of the late Mrs. W. Mulhall, sen., of Harris-street, Pyrmont, leaving three sons and one surviving daughter, Mrs. George Mulhall sen., Broken Bay Lighthouse, and eighty grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great great-grand-children, in her 91st year ; seventy-one years in the colony, beloved by all that was near and dear to her and all that knew her.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13378372

This Sarah's daughter Mary Ann SMITH married George MULHALL in 1835 so it appears that she is not the mother of your Mary Ann.

Debra  :D