Author Topic: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather  (Read 1917 times)

Offline josey

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #18 on: Monday 31 December 18 16:46 GMT (UK) »
We donít yet have any clear evidence that Hannah Pegg was the mother, just a circumstantial finding that the child appears with her family. 
Absolutely, she is only a possiblity at the moment.

Ahh, Wendy, I didn't find that Hannah Hollis so another candidate.

I see from the baptism image that Hannah Hollis' abode was Etwall at that time. ADDED: She has no occupation unlike the other 2 'mother only' baptisms who are servants, might this indicate that she is fairly young?
Seeking: baptism Philip Murray 1813 nr Chatham Kent, death Ralph James Dunn b 1808 1861 - 1868 in Newington 1861
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Nova Scotia [Halifax, Pictou]: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON

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Offline mikegh1109

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #19 on: Monday 31 December 18 17:24 GMT (UK) »
Well, I need to go and have a think about all this but on the basis of the all the help I've received, at the moment my leaning is towards William "inventing" the name George Hollis on the marriage certificate, (possibly after George Pegg, who would have possibly been the nearest thing to a father?), and combined it with his mother, Hannah Hollis, to disguise his illegitimacy.  (Where the occupation joiner came from I do not know).  Hannah could conceivably have boarded William to the Peggs for financial reasons.  Hannah Pegg is not William's mother though I realise I have to remain open-minded about that.

I suppose my next task is to try and follow my ancestry through Hannah Hollis though if anyone would suggest anything else, or disagree with my thinking above, I'd be grateful.  I've learned a lot today thanks to you guys but I'll leave it now till next year!

Many thanks again and Happy New Year.

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Online Wendy2305

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #20 on: Monday 31 December 18 17:32 GMT (UK) »
if you have aa Ancestry subscription there are a couple of trees with the Hannah Hollis who married Samuel Bailey you could check they have and cross check with records you can find they maybe able to rule out this Hannah and good luck with your research

Online Maiden Stone

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 00:50 GMT (UK) »
I hadn't thought of William "making up" a father's name but a quick google about the shame of illegitimacy in those days helps explain why he might.  I'll follow up on censuses and baptism suggestions.  I think I've been too focused on finding (unsuccessfully) the mysterious George who might not even exist I suppose .

I've twice wasted much time (but fortunately no money) on searching for invented fathers. One was the baby's grandfather, the other a combination of forename of step-GF and the mother's surname. There were several illegitimate children in 2 generations of this family.
One boy, first child of eldest daughter, born when she was 19 seemed to have been brought up by his grandparents and named his grandfather as his father on his marriage certificate and called his eldest son after him.
 A girl, youngest child born to a woman who was either widowed or deserted, was registered with mother's husband's surname as mother's maiden name but father's box on birth certificate was blank (1858). The widow married again in July 1861. The mother's youngest child and her 2 illegitimate grandchildren are both on 1871 census with her 2nd husband's surname and relationship as his daughters and son. The 2nd husband was dead before 1881 census and the 3 young people had reverted to their original surnames and correct relationships. When the daughter married she put as her father, her mother's first husband (the dead/disappeared one) and his occupation. The grandchildren used the  made-up combination names of their surname and their step-GF's forename plus his occupation at their marriages . Each called a son after the made-up grandfather.  (There should be a "confused" emoticon.)

Online Maiden Stone

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 01:09 GMT (UK) »

Josey - yes, I found William with the Pegg family and thought it a bit odd that in two consecutive censuses a child was not living with his parent(s).  But maybe Hannah couldn't afford to keep him which would be consistent with the illegitimacy possibility. 
Bear in mind that a census return is only a "snapshot" of a household on one day at 10 year intervals.

Offline Jamjar

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #23 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 02:59 GMT (UK) »
A possibility - there may be a connection to a Pegg family [head is George]

1851 HO107; Piece: 2011; Folio: 262; Page: 23
George Pegg   45
Sarah Pegg   44
Hannah Pegg   15
James Pegg   22
Ann Pegg   23
Ann Bottom   69

1861 RG 9; Piece: 1960; Folio: 33; Page: 20
George Pegg   55
Sarah Pegg   53
Herbert Brooke   49 [should be 29] son in law
Hannah Brooke   24 daughter
Sarah Brooke   2
Fanny Brooke   7/12
William Hollis   8 visitor

1871 RG10; Piece: 2898; Folio: 37; Page: 22
George Pegg   66
Hannah Brooks   34
Frances Brookes   9
William Hollis   18 lodger

The 1841: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7SG-G54

Was William a bricklayer in 1881: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27K-BPPK

Little Brooks:

BROOK, HARRIET mmn PEGG
GRO Reference: 1853  M Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT  Volume 06B  Page 238

BROOKS, SARAH mmn PEGG
GRO Reference: 1858  J Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT  Volume 06B  Page 286

BROOKS, FRANCIS mmn PEGG
GRO Reference: 1857  D Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT  Volume 06B  Page 243   Order

BROOKS, GEORGE mmn PEGG
GRO Reference: 1860  J Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT  Volume 06B  Page 294

BROOKS, FRANCES mmn PEGG
GRO Reference: 1860  D Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT  Volume 06B  Page 265

BROOKS, WILLIAM mmn PEGG
GRO Reference: 1861  J Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT  Volume 06B  Page 288

I wonder why William HOLLIS isnít on the early censuses as grandson. Iíve seen many instances of illegitimate children down as grandchildren of head of household.
Jamjar
Atkinson; Badier; Cameron; Grant; Howie; Jardine; Jenkins; Kerr; Lawardorn; Lee; Linton; Lonie; McConnell; Morgan; Morrison; Murphy; O'Leary; Paton; Pratt; Robb; Williams

Offline iolaus

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 16:45 GMT (UK) »
it may be that his father was George and the registrar just assumed the surnames matched

My great great grandfather (George Fido) was illegitamate, his father (from baptism) is Thomas Williams however one of his marriage certificates the father is down as Thomas Fido (who doesn't exist) on another it's Thomas Williams (George was widowed) - all I can think of is on one marriage he was asked for his father's name and said Thomas and they wrote it down assuming they had the same Surname

Offline mikegh1109

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 17:49 GMT (UK) »
A possibility - there may be a connection to a Pegg family [head is George]

1851 HO107; Piece: 2011; Folio: 262; Page: 23
George Pegg   45
Sarah Pegg   44
Hannah Pegg   15
James Pegg   22
Ann Pegg   23
Ann Bottom   69

1861 RG 9; Piece: 1960; Folio: 33; Page: 20
George Pegg   55
Sarah Pegg   53
Herbert Brooke   49 [should be 29] son in law
Hannah Brooke   24 daughter
Sarah Brooke   2
Fanny Brooke   7/12
William Hollis   8 visitor

1871 RG10; Piece: 2898; Folio: 37; Page: 22
George Pegg   66
Hannah Brooks   34
Frances Brookes   9
William Hollis   18 lodger

The 1841: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7SG-G54

Was William a bricklayer in 1881: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27K-BPPK

Little Brooks:

BROOK, HARRIET mmn PEGG
GRO Reference: 1853  M Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT  Volume 06B  Page 238

BROOKS, SARAH mmn PEGG
GRO Reference: 1858  J Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT  Volume 06B  Page 286

BROOKS, FRANCIS mmn PEGG
GRO Reference: 1857  D Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT  Volume 06B  Page 243   Order

BROOKS, GEORGE mmn PEGG
GRO Reference: 1860  J Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT  Volume 06B  Page 294

BROOKS, FRANCES mmn PEGG
GRO Reference: 1860  D Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT  Volume 06B  Page 265

BROOKS, WILLIAM mmn PEGG
GRO Reference: 1861  J Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT  Volume 06B  Page 288

I wonder why William HOLLIS isnít on the early censuses as grandson. Iíve seen many instances of illegitimate children down as grandchildren of head of household.
Jamjar

Many thanks for all this.  Yes, William was a bricklayer and he's the one you've identified.  It's a possibility that his mother, Hannah Hollis, boarded him out to the Pegg family.  As a single mother of an illegitimate child, she may not have been able to support him. But that's pure speculation on my part. I believe William's baptism record makes it clear he was illegitimate so it was no secret - so no reason for him to be recorded as a grandson, if that's what you mean.  And there's nothing (so far) to suggest that William was related to the Peggs but I'll be keeping that possibility in mind.

Offline mikegh1109

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 17:51 GMT (UK) »
it may be that his father was George and the registrar just assumed the surnames matched

My great great grandfather (George Fido) was illegitamate, his father (from baptism) is Thomas Williams however one of his marriage certificates the father is down as Thomas Fido (who doesn't exist) on another it's Thomas Williams (George was widowed) - all I can think of is on one marriage he was asked for his father's name and said Thomas and they wrote it down assuming they had the same Surname

Thanks.  More food for thought! That's possible. But I've been unable to find a George Hollis who fits.