Author Topic: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather  (Read 1916 times)

Offline mikegh1109

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 17:52 GMT (UK) »
if you have aa Ancestry subscription there are a couple of trees with the Hannah Hollis who married Samuel Bailey you could check they have and cross check with records you can find they maybe able to rule out this Hannah and good luck with your research

Thanks for this tip.  Yes, I do have and Ancestry subscription so I'll do as you suggest.

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Offline mikegh1109

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 17:55 GMT (UK) »
Another possibility is William could have been boarded out to the Peggs and raised by them they maybe no relation to his birth mum and just a coincidence the Pegg's have a daughter Hannah
I think  it would be unlikely a 16/17 year old would be able to convince the local vicar she had been married and widowed to be able to christen her son under Hollis

Thanks Wendy. As things stand, this is where I am at the moment in terms of the likeliest explanation.  But more digging to be done

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Offline mikegh1109

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 17:57 GMT (UK) »

Josey - yes, I found William with the Pegg family and thought it a bit odd that in two consecutive censuses a child was not living with his parent(s).  But maybe Hannah couldn't afford to keep him which would be consistent with the illegitimacy possibility. 
Bear in mind that a census return is only a "snapshot" of a household on one day at 10 year intervals.

Thanks for this cautionary note Josey.  I think it's reasonable speculation, but just speculation nonetheless!

Offline mikegh1109

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 18:04 GMT (UK) »
I hadn't thought of William "making up" a father's name but a quick google about the shame of illegitimacy in those days helps explain why he might.  I'll follow up on censuses and baptism suggestions.  I think I've been too focused on finding (unsuccessfully) the mysterious George who might not even exist I suppose .

I've twice wasted much time (but fortunately no money) on searching for invented fathers. One was the baby's grandfather, the other a combination of forename of step-GF and the mother's surname. There were several illegitimate children in 2 generations of this family.
One boy, first child of eldest daughter, born when she was 19 seemed to have been brought up by his grandparents and named his grandfather as his father on his marriage certificate and called his eldest son after him.
 A girl, youngest child born to a woman who was either widowed or deserted, was registered with mother's husband's surname as mother's maiden name but father's box on birth certificate was blank (1858). The widow married again in July 1861. The mother's youngest child and her 2 illegitimate grandchildren are both on 1871 census with her 2nd husband's surname and relationship as his daughters and son. The 2nd husband was dead before 1881 census and the 3 young people had reverted to their original surnames and correct relationships. When the daughter married she put as her father, her mother's first husband (the dead/disappeared one) and his occupation. The grandchildren used the  made-up combination names of their surname and their step-GF's forename plus his occupation at their marriages . Each called a son after the made-up grandfather.  (There should be a "confused" emoticon.)

 Emoticon agreed!  I suppose I'm lucky in just starting out on all of this that I've been made aware of the possibility of invented fathers, something that would never have occurred to me.  On the other hand, it's made me aware that family research isn't just about finding out names but gives an insight into social attitudes of the times. I was aware like most people that there was a shame about illegitimacy in a family back then but what I didn't realise was that this stigma was carried by the (innocent) child throughout their life, to the extent that they might fictionalise their father! Very informative.

Offline avm228

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 01 January 19 18:14 GMT (UK) »
Yes there are plenty more variations on the theme.  A ggg-grandmother of mine registered a son as though he was born to her and her husband - problem being that the husband had died several years earlier.  Helpfully she gave the child middle names which pointed to a particular local man being the natural father, and indeed she later went on to marry that man.

I feel rather envious of anyone just starting out on this “journey” - so many discoveries await :)
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Online Maiden Stone

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #32 on: Wednesday 02 January 19 00:12 GMT (UK) »
I've today been alerted to a profile on WikiTree of a sister of 2 of the mothers of illegitimate offspring whom I mentioned in my reply #21. (They each had 2 children born out of wedlock and the eldest sister came to the notice of the authorities who wanted to send her back to the village where she was born because she was "a Singlewoman great with child & poor".) The WikiTree profile is an "orphan" i.e. no profile manager, so I've adopted it. The 3 sisters were from a family of 13 children. At least one other sister had a child before marriage, plus there's a mystery toddler on 1841 census who has no birth
registration or baptism and no record of existence post 1841. Where are those confused emoticons?

Edit. You might look at bastardy bonds or quarter sessions petitions for affiliation & maintenance orders. (I turned up only one mention among all the possibilities for my lasses.)

Online Maiden Stone

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #33 on: Wednesday 02 January 19 00:33 GMT (UK) »

As for the father's name being blank on the birth cert unless the father accompanied the mother and registered the birth with her his name couldn't be added if they weren't married
The requirement for father of an illegitimate child to be present at registration if his name was to be included on birth certificate dates from 1874.
 An Act to Amend the Law relating to the Registration of Births and Deaths in England 1874 (37 & 38 Victoria); Clause 7.

Offline Jomot

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #34 on: Wednesday 02 January 19 03:29 GMT (UK) »
Following this one with interest… quite a mystery!

Here’s another possibility to throw into the mix.  In 1841 there is a Hannah Hollis (Mollis on Anc*) aged 15, a servant at Elvaston, Shardlow, and in the same household is Elizabeth Pegg 50, shown as visitor but then crossed out. 

With the 1841 roundings Hannah’s age could be anything up to 19, so a possible baptism for her is at Radbourne, St Andrew on 26 Jan 1823, Hannah, spurious daughter of Margaret Hollis.

I notice that Sarah Pegg [nee Bottom] was also born in Radbourne, and there is a marriage in Radbourne in 1821 of a Hester Bottom to Joseph Appleby, with one of the witnesses being Margaret Hollis.

Hester Bottom b1804 & Sarah Bottom b1807 were sisters, their parents being Henry & Ann

Unfortunately I completely lose track of Margaret Hollis after Hannah’s birth, but she does seem to provide a link between the Hollis, Bottom & Pegg families.

ADDED: Possible baptism for her at Dudleston, Shropshire:
5 Dec 1802 Margaret d/o Thomas & Hannah Hollis
MORGAN: Glamorgan, Durham, Ohio. DAVIS/DAVIES/DAVID: Glamorgan, Ohio.  GIBSON: Leicestershire, Durham. North Yorkshire.  JACKSON: East Yorks, North Yorks, Durham. TAYLOR: North Yorks. BOURDAS: North Yorks. JEFFREYS: Worcestershire & Northumberland. CHEESMOND: Durham/Northumberland. WINTER: Durham/Northumberland. SNOWBALL: Durham.

Offline josey

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Re: Mystery about Great Great Grandfather
« Reply #35 on: Wednesday 02 January 19 10:55 GMT (UK) »
Well that's all food for thought, Jomot.
Seeking: baptism Philip Murray 1813 nr Chatham Kent, death Ralph James Dunn b 1808 1861 - 1868 in Newington 1861
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Nova Scotia [Halifax, Pictou]: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON