Author Topic: A few queries about land  (Read 435 times)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: A few queries about land
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 02 January 19 19:01 GMT (UK) »
I'm following this with interest, hoping, like Dave to understand more. It may have been me who directed Dave to the Nottingham University website recently.
Leaseholders in my family were in Lancashire from 1500s-1800s.

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Offline horselydown86

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Re: A few queries about land
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 03 January 19 05:16 GMT (UK) »
Guy, I mentioned ownership of the lease because you persistently argue (beginning in Reply #1) that B (one of the lives) will inherit when A dies.

This is not automatically true.  B will inherit only if B is one of the heirs, administrators or assigns of A.

As I have said (reply #7):  The lives specified in the lease and the ownership of the lease are two different things.

You say, "Each new lessee would have to pay a fine to take up the lease..."

This is wrong for a lease by Indenture.  The new owner of the lease would surrender the lease to the lessor as part of the consideration when negotiating a new leasehold (which may include a refreshed list of lives).

I refer you also to the link below.  Note the third and fourth sentences of the Conclusion.

Finally, here are two leaseholds for term of lives* for sale in Cornwall in early 1834.

These are my last words on the subject.

*  Before anyone asks about the 99 years, the lives have precedence over the 99 years in determining the lease.  That is, the lease is for 99 years or until the last of the lives dies, whichever is the shorter.

The Link Shrinker doesn't appear to be working.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=SLjCAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=hereditary+tenancy&source=bl&ots=fePmGzBCPE&sig=QgUVHwYpqFC7cHtirtoLUx-NKbc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE5vCm5NDfAhUJu7wKHfTEBJI4ChDoATAIegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=hereditary%20principle&f=false


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Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: A few queries about land
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 03 January 19 08:51 GMT (UK) »
Guy, I mentioned ownership of the lease because you persistently argue (beginning in Reply #1) that B (one of the lives) will inherit when A dies.

This is not automatically true.  B will inherit only if B is one of the heirs, administrators or assigns of A.

You seem to have confused yourself, the OP asked the following.

1) A lease for three lives: if A was the eldest, B younger and C the youngest, the lease would presumably end with the death of C if they lived longest. What if C had a child but C pre-deceased B? Would the lease pass to C’s child or end with the death of B? (The University of Nottingham website info on this has entirely confused me!).

A was the first life.
B was the second lfe.
C was the third life.

A had died therefore the first life was finished, C had died therefore the third life was finished, leaving only B the second life.
When B died there were no more lives left therefore C’s son could not take over the lease.


As I have said (reply #7):  The lives specified in the lease and the ownership of the lease are two different things.

You say, "Each new lessee would have to pay a fine to take up the lease..."

This is wrong for a lease by Indenture.  The new owner of the lease would surrender the lease to the lessor as part of the consideration when negotiating a new leasehold (which may include a refreshed list of lives).

I refer you also to the link below.  Note the third and fourth sentences of the Conclusion.

The third and fourth sentences of the Conclusion state-

‘By the sixteenth century villein tenure had evolved into fully fledged copyholds and leaseholds. Copyholds of inheritance retained the hereditary principal, whereas those for lives, and leases did not.’

That does not dispute what I have written
‘Each new lessee would have to pay a fine to take up the lease but in practice they established “hereditary tenancies” as it was normally beneficial for both the lease owner and lessee.’

That means they were forming something which to all intents and purposes was the same as hereditary tenancies. It does not mean they were creating hereditary tenancies in law.

Finally, here are two leaseholds for term of lives* for sale in Cornwall in early 1834.

These are my last words on the subject.

*  Before anyone asks about the 99 years, the lives have precedence over the 99 years in determining the lease.  That is, the lease is for 99 years or until the last of the lives dies, whichever is the shorter.

The Link Shrinker doesn't appear to be working.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=SLjCAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=hereditary+tenancy&source=bl&ots=fePmGzBCPE&sig=QgUVHwYpqFC7cHtirtoLUx-NKbc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE5vCm5NDfAhUJu7wKHfTEBJI4ChDoATAIegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=hereditary%20principle&f=false



Your last example seems to be lots in an auction for a number of leases which used to based on 99 year lives but which were now offered until the deaths of the two people referred to one aged 46 and one aged 41 in the case of lot 6.
In the case of lot 7 all the original lessees had given up their right of a 99 year lease or died and the lease was being offered based on the lives (i.e. until the people died) of three people aged 40, 22 & 20. In other words the leases were being changed from being based on a fixed term of years to a variable term ending on the deaths of three people.

None of your examples say anything other than what I have already written.

Cheers
Guy
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