Author Topic: Which WW1 Scottish regiment dress uniform is this?  (Read 600 times)

Offline dhmm

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Which WW1 Scottish regiment dress uniform is this?
« on: Thursday 03 January 19 07:49 GMT (UK) »
Can anyone help me identify the regiment of the gentleman below? He is a relative who (according to his Army Medal Card) served in the 1st Lanarkshire Rifles Volunteers, 9th Highland Light Infantry, and Royal Army Service Corp (Lieutenant) between 1907 and at least 1922 (possibly much later, he seems to have been a career army man).

I've Googled the dress of all three but none seem to match, in fact the badge resembles that of the Black Watch - but according to his service record he didn't serve there.. so I'm a bit baffled. If it helps he is Thomas Torrance Millar (1876-1957).

Many thanks!

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Online Jebber

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Re: Which WW1 Scottish regiment dress uniform is this?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 03 January 19 08:43 GMT (UK) »
Welcome to Rootschat.

Going by the collar badges and the sporran it looks like The Black Watch.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

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Offline MaxD

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Re: Which WW1 Scottish regiment dress uniform is this?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 03 January 19 10:21 GMT (UK) »
His medal card would have only those regiments he served with overseas so pre-war service in a Black Watch affiliated unit is a possibility.

It may have been a militia unit as the efficiency stars seen on his lower sleeve were typical of the militia after 1881.  The star above his sergeant's stripes is also typical.

That said, the combination of a Scottish uniform and volunteers or militia (who made their own rules to an extent) put this in the category of a specialist subject - not mine I'm afraid.

Only way to be sure is to get his records from the National Archives. WO 339/85923

MaxD
Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline dhmm

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Re: Which WW1 Scottish regiment dress uniform is this?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 04 January 19 04:45 GMT (UK) »
Thanks, I agree it certainly LOOKS like Black Watch dress!  I think I need to fork out some shekels and get his service record to get to the bottom of it!

But in your experience was it usual for soldiers to move around so much between regiments? I thought they joined one "for life", often forming a strong attachment?   


Online Jebber

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Re: Which WW1 Scottish regiment dress uniform is this?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 04 January 19 09:43 GMT (UK) »
You are talking about a period covering WW1, when you will find a lot of men served in several different units, they were moved according to where there was a shortage of manpower. You will also find they had a different Regimental numbers  for each unit, numbers were not standardised until after  the War.

Even in modern times you can be posted and attached to another Regiment, but at least your number remains the same.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

Offline MaxD

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Re: Which WW1 Scottish regiment dress uniform is this?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 04 January 19 10:00 GMT (UK) »
There are a couple of factors at play with your man.  The photo**and the Lanarkshire Rifles are pre 1908 and were part time units (I can't account for the possible Black Watch connection).  9 HLI was a Territorial Force unit which, along with other TF HLI battalions, absorbed Glasgow militia and volunteer units on formation in 1908 so the first moves would have been a result of the reorganisation of the TF.

He was commissioned into the Army Service Corps in January 1917.  The choice here was probably a question of where the army needed him, during the war the man's choice didn't count for much.
 He didn't go overseas until 10 July 1918 so his overseas service was all with the ASC.  He relinquished his commission in 1921.

His service record will hold the answers!

** How confident are you that this is your TT Millar?  His record cover transcribed by the National Archives only has the regiments you quoted.

MaxD

PS Jebber makes the same point although as his final record was as an officer and they didn't have numbers, only his record will show what his numbers were before commissioning.
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Online Jebber

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Re: Which WW1 Scottish regiment dress uniform is this?
« Reply #6 on: Friday 04 January 19 10:29 GMT (UK) »

PS Jebber makes the same point although as his final record was as an officer and they didn't have numbers, only his record will show what his numbers were before commissioning.

Max is quite correct about numbers, I overlooked his commission.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

Offline T1

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Re: Which WW1 Scottish regiment dress uniform is this?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 04 January 19 11:03 GMT (UK) »
The efficiency stars and the star worn above the stripes are signs of a "volunteer" (unpaid part-time) unit as mentioned by others.  These were not used by the "militia" (paid part-time) forces however, who were more closely aligned with the regular army in their dress.

He is a member of the 5th (Glasgow Highland) Volunteer Battalion, the Highland Light Infantry, which despite its title closely modelled its uniform and badges on the Black Watch rather than the HLI.  The most distinctively non-Black Watch feature was the white-over-red "hackle" (plume) that can be prominently seen in this photo - this combination of features really leaves no doubt as to which unit he was in.  When the Volunteer Force became the Territorial Force in 1908, the 5th Volunteer Battalion was retitled as the 9th (Glasgow Highland) Battalion, Highland Light Infantry.  So this is actually the uniform of one of the three units you already know that he served in.

According to Grierson's detailed book on the volunteer force in Scotland, red sashes for sergeants (as in your photo) were issued in this battalion from 1902 onwards, so it is likely the photo is dated later than this.

Tim

Offline MaxD

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Re: Which WW1 Scottish regiment dress uniform is this?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 04 January 19 11:43 GMT (UK) »
Tim

Absolutely splendid to have your expert confirmation of my amateur efforts at the vagaries of Scottish regiments and their dress.  I had suspected the use of Black Watch based dress rather than actually  being Black Watch hence my use of the term "affiliated" earlier (wrong word but the best I could think of).

Happy Hogmanay

MaxD

PS He received the relatively rare Territorial Force War Medal acknowledging his pre 1914 TF service and war service with the TF.
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