Author Topic: William WHITE of Stockwell born 1750ish  (Read 306 times)

Offline ColC

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Re: William WHITE of Stockwell born 1750ish
« Reply #9 on: Friday 04 January 19 17:58 GMT (UK) »
The reason I could not find them was I assumed he was born in Surrey but the 1841
stated not born in County for either of them. That led me to this.

Thomas White of the parish of St Mary Newington, Bachelor
Married Susannah Vanderkiste of this parish, Spinster
Witnesses John White  & Fras Brothers all 4 signed
11 May 1814
St Mary Abbots Church, Kensington, Kensington and Chelsea, England

Colin
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Offline ColC

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Re: William WHITE of Stockwell born 1750ish
« Reply #10 on: Friday 04 January 19 18:04 GMT (UK) »
But she was!

Susannah Vanderkiste
Baptism
27 Dec 1788
St Mary at Lambeth, Lambeth, Surrey
Joseph Stone, Vanderkiste & Ann

Colin
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Offline Carl42

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Re: William WHITE of Stockwell born 1750ish
« Reply #11 on: Friday 04 January 19 19:21 GMT (UK) »
Colin, you are amazing and I owe you big time!  I have searched high and low to find Susannah's surname.  Her grave in Kensall Green states that she was born on 2 Dec 1789, but as we know dates can be so unreliable.  After she left the Artichoke in the mid 1850's she went to live in Kensington with her younger son Frederick Thomas White who was by then a well renowned barrister.  FTW is the only child mentioned in Thomas's 1850 will - their eldest son WSW died in squalor in 1829 whilst making sextant frames in Anchor and Hope Alley, St George's in the East, close by Wapping Old Stairs.  WSW and his wife Martha died of TB (Martha in 1841) and they left behind 3 orphaned children, William, Eliza and my 2xg grandfather James Buckle White, born in 1837.  Susanna reported WSW's death and as far as I can establish she rescued her three orphaned grandchildren, arranged apprenticeships as tailors and financed their eventual move up to Lancashire.  I am quite certain that without her assistance I would not be writing to you today.

Youngest son FTW was born around 1815 which fits well with their marriage date of 1814.  I do not have a baptism for FTW, I have estimated his birth from ages given by him in censuses.  The wife of the eldest son of FTW was Constance Mildred Ley, eldest child of John Henry and Henrietta Ley of Devon who was wig-bearing clerk in the House of Commons.  My great grandfather was John Henry Buckle White and I suspect that he was named in honour of John Henry Ley who may have played a part in the education of the three orphans.  Many children were named 'Annie' which I believe to have been the commonly used name of Susanna.  Perhaps tellingly we never had another child in our family line called Thomas.  Apparently the name Annie was revered whilst Thomas was not.
Your revelation opens many new avenues of research and I cannot thank you enough.
Eternally grateful, Carl

Offline Carl42

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Re: William WHITE of Stockwell born 1750ish
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 05 January 19 08:30 GMT (UK) »
Hi Colin - Of course, having slept on it, we cannot be sure that Susannah Vanderkiste was my 4xg grandmother.  There may have been two Susannahs' one the mother of WSW and the other the mother of FTW.  We also have to consider the possibility that the Thomas and Susannah that WSW recorded as being his parents at his adult baptism in 1823 was only what he had been led to believe.  However there is little doubt that Susannah Vanderkiste was the person who reported WSW's death and also the same person who supported the 3 orphans right up until her death in 1868.
Best Regards, Carl

Offline ColC

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Re: William WHITE of Stockwell born 1750ish
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 05 January 19 11:32 GMT (UK) »
Hi Carl

Susannah was born 2 Dec 1788 according to the baptism record, which was in good condition.
So she would be 13 years 7 months when WSW was born on 19 July 1802, by the way the baptism form is a bit of a mess, only the date 26 Feb 1823, his name William Samuel son of Thomas & Susanna White, is clear. The abode column has St. Georges the next 4 or 5 lines crossed out, as was fatherís occupation of Mathematical Instrument Maker.

It may not be connected but!
Susannah White   Burial    14 Sep 1802   St Mary, Newington, Southwark, Surrey
The record simply states a Woman, others stated Man or Child.

I found John and 4 out of 5 children but nothing after 1821. Did You?
John White       24 May 1802   St Mary, Lambeth   Charlotte
Elizabeth Ansell a witness

Charlotte 1805, Maria 1808, Lydia 1810 plus the key one, this notes John as a Victualler.
William White   28 Jan 1821   Hampton St Mary   Richmond upon Thames   John,Charlotte


Colin


Clarke, Trickett, Orton, Lawless, Norton, Detheridge, Kirby, Goodfellow, Wagstaff, Lowe, etc.

Offline Carl42

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Re: William WHITE of Stockwell born 1750ish
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 05 January 19 19:40 GMT (UK) »
Hi Colin - Yes, the baptism entry is a bit of a mess.  I checked about 500 other entries of Cyril Onslow and the only corrections I found elsewhere were a couple of re-spelling of surnames, so he was having a 'bad hair' day when he recorded WSW's adult baptism.  I agree with the birth and baptism date that you have.  The addresses are 'Beckford Row, Walworth' (birthplace?), 'St John's Wapping' (where WSW served his apprenticeship?). and 'St George's in the East' (where WSW was living at the time? IE Anchor and Hope Alley aka Little Broad Street) - the extension of Broad Street.  Broad Street had housing on the east side and the high wall of the new London Dock on the west side.  Anchor and Hope Alley was a short alleyway that gave access to the quay side of the Thames.  A good location to sell sextants with fresh customers arriving daily, but probably the most unhealthy place in London.

As you say the entry for the death of a Susannah White is hard to explain - should we attach significance to this being a couple of months after WSW's birth?

The fifth child of John and Charlotte was George born 17 Apr 1815 and baptised on 14 May 1815.  Of the five children Maria was the only one who lived her life away from Hampton/Windsor.  I don't think that George survived through to adulthood.  John, Charlotte and children appear to have left Hampton Court just about the time that Royalty moved to Brighton.  In the 1881 census William stated that he was born in 'Hampton Court Palace' - not sure about that.  As I said before Maria married ex bar man Frederick Hayward and they took over the Artichoke after Susannah moved to Kensington.  Frederick appears to have been a 'steady Eddie' whilst Maria was the opposite - she was aged 39 in 1851 and the same age in 1861 - I wish!  After Frederick and Maria retired they went to live out their lives out in Windsor.

Regardless of whether WSW's Susannah was the same as FTW's Susannah Vandekiste, it was the latter who was there for WSW when he was dying (she rented a house nearby).  It was she who rescued the orphans from St George's Workhouse and raised them as if they were her own.  She may not be my blood relative but she has my deepest respect.

Cheers Carl

Offline ColC

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Re: William WHITE of Stockwell born 1750ish
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 06 January 19 11:38 GMT (UK) »
  The Susanna burial was probably not connected a large number of Susanna/hís married a White. Eg.
Susanna Jeffereys   18 May 1788   St Mary, Newington   John White

I found a tree on AÖ.y which gives a different life for John White baptised 1773 Saint Michael Crooked Lane, parents William White  & Priscilla. If they are correct itís not your John.

So with no clear matching parents for John & Thomas in London area either the records did not survive or they were born elsewhere.

What a pity there is no 1841 census for John.

Best wishes Colin

Clarke, Trickett, Orton, Lawless, Norton, Detheridge, Kirby, Goodfellow, Wagstaff, Lowe, etc.

Offline Carl42

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Re: William WHITE of Stockwell born 1750ish
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 06 January 19 12:42 GMT (UK) »
I want to thank you again Colin, I've been stuck in a rut for the last 3 years and you have provided me with new information and new avenues to explore.
Thanks for your opinion regarding regarding Susanna Jeffreys and Crooked Lane.  Also for your opinion on births of John and Thomas - It is indeed a pity that John did not live to 1841, but also a pity that Thomas did not survive until 1851.  Susanna states that she was born in Stockwell and that is where we began this discussion attempting to find a link between William who ran the Swan in Stockwell and Thomas, his possible son who ran the Artichoke in Newington.  Both John and Thomas had sons called William which may be taken as a clue - When you are researching a common name in a built up area I find that I have no option but to clutch at straws such as these.
I have found a tree on A.....y which majors on the Vanderkiste line.  She shows no information on the life of Susannah other than born 1788.  Her father was an MD and he may have lived in London where his daughter was married which would be interesting.  Perhaps if someone in her line has taken a genes test then this may prove/disprove a blood relationship with Susanna Vanderkiste.
I thought that I owe you some background information that you might find interesting. 
There has been an Artichoke tavern on Newington Causeway since at least 1687 long before its now famous neighbour the Elephant and Castle.  Ominously the last record that I can find for the Artichoke is in 1944.  It is however recorded as 'Artichoak Inn' on John Rocques map of 1746/7 and also shown in elevation on Taliss's street view of 1838 where 'T WHITE can be clearly seen in large letters above the entrance (both works are in the LMA).
I think it likely that WSW was drawn to octant making by Nelson's victory in 1805.  It proved to be a poor choice since shortly after his apprenticeship manufacturing materials changed from ebony and ivory to that of materials more likely to survive life at sea, mainly brass.  Brass manufacture required expensive machine tools which entailed sextants to be manufactured in larger scale factory conditions as opposed to the cottage industry of ebony and ivory.  It is no wonder that WSW never made it out of poverty.
The family lines of John (Windsor) and FTW (Kensington) have long since become extinct.  However James Buckle White and his wife Mary Westbrook went on to produce 14 children which ensured the survival of many descendants still alive today.  I attribute the name unusual Christian name of Buckle to a family living nearby headed by lighterman James Buckle.  Perhaps this family in some way saved WSW's youngest son.  It is curious to think that JBW dodged many bullets and survived to be the most productive in terms of heirs.
Thanks again, best regards  Carl