Author Topic: Williams of Denton and Stamford  (Read 1186 times)

Offline Taylor94

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 637
  • My grt grt grandfather, after capture WW1
    • View Profile
Williams of Denton and Stamford
« on: Monday 07 January 19 08:53 GMT (UK) »
I have this interesting Arms from the Williams family of Denton, Linc.
CoA - 'Gules, A Cave Proper, Therefrom Issuing a Wolf at Full Speed Reguardant Argent'
Crest - 'A Lion Rampant Proper'
In use by John Williams, Esq of Denton 1584-1627
When his daughter Eleanor married William Welby, Esq of Denton in 1633 the arms were displayed as Welby impaled or Quartered with Williams as per the painting of a window in the Bede House, Denton.

Not sure when they were granted but the family descend from Thomas Williams, Esq of Abergavenny. Who was Gentleman of the Bedchamber for Henry VII.
Richard Dudley of Cosby. Gent
George Bent of Cosby. Gent
William Black of Kilby. Gent
Bernard Cotton of Dadlington. Esq
Sir Thomas Halford of Wistow. Bart
Richard Swynfen of Sutton Cheney. Gent
John Cotes of Aylestone. Gent
John Freeston of East Norton. Gent
Sir John Bernard of Abington.
Edward Shuckburgh of Naseby. Esq
Richard Worsley of Deeping. Esq
Thomas Hobson of Glen. Gent
John Grant of Stretton Parva. Gent
John Miles of Heanley Hall. Gent
Thomas Dabridgecourt. Esq
Sir Clement Edmondes

Offline Taylor94

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 637
  • My grt grt grandfather, after capture WW1
    • View Profile
Re: Williams of Denton and Stamford
« Reply #1 on: Monday 07 January 19 09:58 GMT (UK) »
The Arms are also given as 'Gu. a wolf issuing out of a rock from the sinister side of the escutcheon all ar.' Although this version isn't the one listed on Pedigree by Maddison and chooses to use Rock instead of Cave, it must be the arms which were impaled with Welby in 1633 as it mentions the Sinister side.
Richard Dudley of Cosby. Gent
George Bent of Cosby. Gent
William Black of Kilby. Gent
Bernard Cotton of Dadlington. Esq
Sir Thomas Halford of Wistow. Bart
Richard Swynfen of Sutton Cheney. Gent
John Cotes of Aylestone. Gent
John Freeston of East Norton. Gent
Sir John Bernard of Abington.
Edward Shuckburgh of Naseby. Esq
Richard Worsley of Deeping. Esq
Thomas Hobson of Glen. Gent
John Grant of Stretton Parva. Gent
John Miles of Heanley Hall. Gent
Thomas Dabridgecourt. Esq
Sir Clement Edmondes

Offline MaecW

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
  • Yma o hyd
    • View Profile
Re: Williams of Denton and Stamford
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 09 January 19 09:49 GMT (UK) »
An unusual and strikingly effective design.

The only reference to this in Siddons’ exhaustive Welsh Armorial is given as “Gules, from a mount Vert on sinister side of shield, a demi-wolf Argent issuant” and is ascribed to “Williams, Unidentified”. The information is from “The Book of Edward Puleston” compiled c1590-1604.  As this is seems to be the only source in early Welsh records it suggests that these were not traditional Arms but had been, as you surmise, granted or assumed (adopted)  either by Thomas Williams or his son. Presumably Puleston was aware of a Welsh connection, but unsure of where or how !

Maec
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)

Offline Taylor94

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 637
  • My grt grt grandfather, after capture WW1
    • View Profile
Re: Williams of Denton and Stamford
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 09 January 19 10:54 GMT (UK) »
Interesting to note that each blazon is slightly different.
One with wolf coming out of a Cave, One from behind a Rock and another with just a Wolf.

I don't go by Burkes armory which is what the questionable COADB uses I think and the arms are given as for 'Williams of Denton, Lincolnshire & Devon'
I haven't found anything relating to Devon yet, I have through the National Archives found records relating to William Williams, Esq of Stamford. Son of Thomas and Grt Grandfather of John.

I was wondering if the arms were granted by Henry VII to Thomas for service. Thomas may have been in Henry's Welsh retinue at Bosworth. Perhaps given land in Devon and then moving to Stamford, Linc or Thomas of Devon before coming to Stamford?
A gentleman of the chamber was part of the privy chamber so Thomas must have been known and trusted to the King to acquire such a close position to him.


According to Burkes as supplied by Maddison, it's stated Burkes gave Thomas as 'Of Aberconway' but apparently this is incorrect and he was 'Of Abergavenny'
Richard Dudley of Cosby. Gent
George Bent of Cosby. Gent
William Black of Kilby. Gent
Bernard Cotton of Dadlington. Esq
Sir Thomas Halford of Wistow. Bart
Richard Swynfen of Sutton Cheney. Gent
John Cotes of Aylestone. Gent
John Freeston of East Norton. Gent
Sir John Bernard of Abington.
Edward Shuckburgh of Naseby. Esq
Richard Worsley of Deeping. Esq
Thomas Hobson of Glen. Gent
John Grant of Stretton Parva. Gent
John Miles of Heanley Hall. Gent
Thomas Dabridgecourt. Esq
Sir Clement Edmondes


Offline MaecW

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
  • Yma o hyd
    • View Profile
Re: Williams of Denton and Stamford
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 09 January 19 11:29 GMT (UK) »
Deleted - double post
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)

Offline MaecW

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
  • Yma o hyd
    • View Profile
Re: Williams of Denton and Stamford
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 09 January 19 11:32 GMT (UK) »
"Interesting to note that each blazon is slightly different."

Probably because the blazoner is trying to describe what they see. If you look at the example that you have posted, is the wolf coming out of the hill/rock or is it coming from behind it ? 

"I don't go by Burkes armory which is what the questionable COADB uses"
I'm not sure what COADB is but Burke's General Armory is notorious for its inaccuracy. It was thrown together as a moneymaker and aimed to include as many families as possible who claimed to be armigerous. Little effort was made to check or correct the information provided.

How reliable is Maddison ? Some of those Victorian family historians were not beyond gilding the lily to flatter their customers but some were very good and stuck with what they could prove.

Presumably the College of Arms could confirm whether there was a grant to either of the Williams but it might cost a bit to confirm  !

Good hunting !

Maec
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)

Offline Taylor94

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 637
  • My grt grt grandfather, after capture WW1
    • View Profile
Re: Williams of Denton and Stamford
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 09 January 19 11:42 GMT (UK) »
Maddison conpiled the 'Lincolnshire Pedigrees publication and seems to have done an accurate job on the Welby and Williams families.
He gives that information for Williams was obtained from Harlaxton and Denton Church registers and documents held by the Welby family.

Williams do not appear in the Visitation of Lincolnshire nor do they appear in the Devon visitation of 1534. A Williams family is present in the Devon visitation but not this family of Stamford and Denton.

I will check the London visitation as the family could be present there. William Williams, Esq son of John was frequently in London so he may have supplied it there in 1634. I know my Dudley family of Leicestershire supplied their pedigree in London rather than Leicester so it's a possibility.

I'm not sure where Maddison found the pedigree but it certainly ties up to records I have found in the National Archives.

It seems a Wolf is either coming out of a Cave or coming from behind a Rock.
I could ask the college of arms but they required a sum just to check if the arms used by my Bent family had been granted, so I'm not sure I feel like departing with about £300 just to check.
Richard Dudley of Cosby. Gent
George Bent of Cosby. Gent
William Black of Kilby. Gent
Bernard Cotton of Dadlington. Esq
Sir Thomas Halford of Wistow. Bart
Richard Swynfen of Sutton Cheney. Gent
John Cotes of Aylestone. Gent
John Freeston of East Norton. Gent
Sir John Bernard of Abington.
Edward Shuckburgh of Naseby. Esq
Richard Worsley of Deeping. Esq
Thomas Hobson of Glen. Gent
John Grant of Stretton Parva. Gent
John Miles of Heanley Hall. Gent
Thomas Dabridgecourt. Esq
Sir Clement Edmondes