Searching for John Barr and Mary Barr 1881 to 1901 - Paisley/Kilmarnock

[Caltha]

I'm trying to find John Barr who was born in Paisley around 1853.  He married Mary in 1879 and I have their marriage certificate.  In 1881 they were living in Kilmarnock, but theyu may have returned to Paisley by 1891. Their children (Norman and Kathleen) are recorded with their grandparents in 1891.  Mary, or both may have emigrated to the US at this time.  I know that she and the children ended up there.  Can anyone help find John and Mary in the 1891 or in John;s case the 1901 census.  Even better, I'd appreciate if anyone can find a death record for him, possible between 1884 and 1894.

[Forfarian]

Before anyone dives in to help with this one, there is already a long thread dealing with this couple. Read it first to avoid duplicating what people have already found.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=805766.0

[Caltha]

Thanks Forfarian, but I am not sure that reading the previous thread will help anyone. That is why I was specific about the question with the background to the couple.

[Forfarian]

The previous thread contains a lot of relevant information: Mary's maiden name, the birth years ansd birthplaces of the two children, the details of the 1881 census for John and Mary, and the reasons why you are looking for John's death between those dates.

[Caltha]

Forfarian - I am not looking after the children.  I have found them and they were not with their parents at this time.  They are not the problem. 

[Forfarian]

I know you know what happened to the children, but it is relevant because it tells people where the parents were after the 1881 census. And Mary's surname is important because it should be on John's death certificate.

[Caltha]

It is a difficult one because I have checked the only reasonable 1891 Census record with both names, but it is not this couple.  I suspect that answers may lie in the immigration records, but not in Scotland per se. It is an important part of the story which is attracting interest in the US.

[Forfarian]

OK, let's summarise what we know already.

I am assuming that everything in the records is accurate, and no -one was lying about their  birthplace, parents' names or marital status. My comments, questions and suggestions in italics.

John Barr was born 1852/1853 in Paisley. You presumably know from his marriage certificate what the names of his parents were.

Mary Buchanan Newlands was born in Paisley on 1 May 1855, parents John B Newlands and Jacobina Oliver.

John Barr and Mary Buchanan Newlands were married in Paisley in 1879.

Norman Stirrat Barr was born in Kilmarnock on 19 March 1881.

1881 Census details from LDS transcription
28 Clark Street, Kilmarnock, Ayrshire
John Barr, Head, Mar, 28, Engineer master, born Paisly, Renfrewshire
Mary B Barr, Wife, Mar, 23, born Paisly, Renfrewshire (Mary lied; she was actually 25 not 23)
Norman S Barr, Son, 1 month, born Kilmk, Ayrshire

Cathleen Newlands Barr was born in Kilmarnock on 20 March 1884. Therefore John Barr must have been alive in June 1883.

In 1884 John Barr, engineer, Kilmarnock, was bankrupted.

1891 Census: Mossgrove King Street Helensburgh Dunbartonshire
J B Newlands 67
J Newlands 62
J Newlands 44
N Barr   10
K Barr   7

Compare this with the 1881 Census: Burn Bank Cottage, Calside, Paisley, Renfrewshire
John B Newlands, Head, Mar, 57, Watch & jeweller, born Bathgate, West Lothian
Jacobina Orr, Wife, Mar, 52, born Paisley, Renfrewshire
Jacobina Newlands, Daughter, Unm, 34, born Paisley, Renfrewshire

So in 1891, 10-year-old Norman and 6-year-old Cathleen/Kathleen Barr are living with their maternal grandparents

On 22 December 1893 Henry Gee, born 1852 in Gloucestershire, parents Joseph Benson Gee and Elizabeth Bellamy, marries Mary Newlands Barr, widow, born 1857, parents John Buchanan Newlands and Jacobine Ovor. (Mary does appear to have lied about her DoB again - she was born in 1855)

Norman S Barr, aged 13, arrives in USA 31 July 1894.

1900 Census: Tombstone, Cochise, Arizona Territory
Henry M Gee   47 Born October 1852 England. Mine owner.
Mary Gee   41 born May 1859 Scotland. Had 3 children and 3survive. Maarried 1894.
Kathleen Gee (the name Barr was crossed out)   16 born May 1884 Scotland. Step-daughter

Kathleen Newlands Barr, born 1884, arrives in USA, mother Mrs Henry Gee, Arizona.

Have you considered the possibility that after his failure in business, and perhaps struggling for a while, John and Mary left the children with her parents and travelled together to the USA to start a new life, intending to send for the children once they had settled. John died in the USA before they had achieved this, and Mary subsequently married Henry Gee, moving soon afterwards to Tombstone, Arizona. They sent for the children, and Norman arrived soon afterwards. Kathleen must also have travelled to USA because she was with her mother and stepfather in 1900.

If so, then you are looking for John's death in the USA, perhaps New York, because that was where Mary married Henry Gee. Why not try searching for a death in the USA using the parent names John must have given on his marriage certificate in 1879?

[Caltha]

Thanks Forfarian.  I have put all the information together in an Ancestry Family Tree - the Newlands Family. My interpretation is similar to your own in that it seems that John may well have gone with Mary to New York.  If you look at the tree you will see that Henry Gee appears to have been a bit of a character and ended up back in England, where he remarried.
I have followed both Norman and Kathleen and both settled in the US and I presume there are family members still alive in California.  The work that Sandra kindly did showed there was a breakdown in the family after Mary died, resulting in action taken by the children against Henry.
My next stage is to check the immigration records to see if John and Mary did travel together to the US.  I hope they did and that John did indeed die, albeit the story would be tragic.  It would confirm that Mary was Widowed and not bigamous.
I suspect that she met Henry in New York and was taken by his charm and, possibly promises of wealth.  He was to have interests in a mine in Tombstone and seems to have been entrepreneurial.
As in all of these circumstances, we will never know the details of the story, but I'd like to get closer to finding out when the rose tree was planted and what its true origins were - the house in Helensburgh or the family home on Kilmarnock.  Perhaps it could even have been Paisley.  My suspicion is Helensburgh and that is another line of enquiry.
Incidentally, JB Newlands was an eminent jeweller and watchmaker.  One of his clocks was recently sold in eBay. He eventually sold the business, which I suspect precipitated his move to Helensburgh.  Although he seems to have been wealthy, his probate suggests that he died comfortably but not overly wealthy.
Its a good story since it adds much to the original surrounding the rose tree, although it is at variance with the dates they have.  I am going there in June where I will meet some family members who have more background from that end.
All this and its not even my family, but like most of these, they are absorbing when you get on the trail.