Author Topic: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s  (Read 420 times)

Offline Puffin81

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Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 23 January 19 20:00 GMT (UK) »
Itís  all the same handwriting, but the men dint put their mark


Was Luke C...Ö. the clergyman? Capital C in his name resembles capital C in name of a witness. Without seeing the whole of his name I guess that the certificate was copied by a clerk. If it was copied correctly, then the bridegroom signed the original marriage certificate but the bride didn't. A few marriage certificates have initials of the clergyman or registrar who witnessed her making her mark next to her X.
Marriage certificates I have collected are from county registry office and are photocopies of original certificates, complete with inkblots, scratchy writing and uneven crosses.

So itís not a photocopy of the original? They are re written? I think Lucas curry was the clergyman as I have a transcript of the church records, there is an MR after his name unsure What that means? 

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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 23 January 19 21:00 GMT (UK) »

So itís not a photocopy of the original? They are re written? I think Lucas curry was the clergyman as I have a transcript of the church records, there is an MR after his name unsure What that means?

It doesn't look original. Handwriting of all 5 signatures looks alike. They are all very neat. Small neat crosses. (Have you ever used a pen with a nib which had to be dipped in ink? I have - it takes a lot of practice to write neatly.) Capital K in Keenan in groom's signature is written same way as for father's name.
MR after clergyman's name. Minister of religion? Was wedding in a Catholic church? If it was, the letters may have been M. A. for Missionary Apostolic, or Latin equivalent, usually shortened to Miss. Apost. If it wasn't in a Catholic church the letters might still have been M.A. for Master of Arts, if the clergyman had a university degree.
Is it the transcript of the church marriage register which has the groom's father as James? It may be an incorrect transcription (Jas/Thos) or a registrar has made a mistake in copying somewhere in the chain. If the marriage was in a Catholic church there should have been a registrar in attendance at the church for the marriage to be valid. Two (or is it 3?) registers would have been signed; one was the church's copy and remained at the church; the registrar would have taken one away with him to the registry office.

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Offline Puffin81

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Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 23 January 19 21:18 GMT (UK) »
It was catholic

The transcript from the church is transcribed by the records office, I wonder if I can get a photocopy for myself, might help


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 24 January 19 00:51 GMT (UK) »
Have you located marriages of siblings to find out what name they put for father?
 If the letter h was missed from Thomas, like in the Irish version of the name, it might look like James in the church register. (One of my English ancestors signed tomas in the marriage register. His handwriting was clear, round and childlike. A priest who baptised one of his sons didn't write as clearly, consequently Thomas' name was transcribed as John. His name is correct for baptisms of 9 other children and for all 10 of their marriages.)
What were Bartholomew's sons called? He may have called one of his elder sons after his father.

I noticed that Bartholomew's first name in his signature seems to end in "ey". He may have been known by family and friends as Barty or Batty. That, to my mind is an indication that he signed the original certificate himself. Is it Bartholomew on the top part of the certificate?
Do you know the identities of the witnesses? Could they have been relatives?

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Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 24 January 19 06:22 GMT (UK) »
In some of my research in Ireland I have seen Batholomew spelt as Bartholomey and Bartholomeu. Could be Bart/ Barty etc

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 27 January 19 19:32 GMT (UK) »
Have you located marriages of siblings to find out what name they put for father?
 
Do you have the marriage of Bartholomew's brother or sister? Preferably both. You need them for further evidence about name of their father and possibly whether he was recorded as deceased on their marriage certificates.
 

Offline Puffin81

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Re: Keenan / oneil, Help with Irish births, marriage, army early 1800s
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 27 January 19 20:57 GMT (UK) »
Have you located marriages of siblings to find out what name they put for father?
 
Do you have the marriage of Bartholomew's brother or sister? Preferably both. You need them for further evidence about name of their father and possibly whether he was recorded as deceased on their marriage certificates.

No the only one Iím certain of as being a sibling I canít find a record for as they got married in Ireland.