Author Topic: Birth 1821 Woolwich, Kent. Caroline Walter(s)  (Read 537 times)

Offline ard

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Birth 1821 Woolwich, Kent. Caroline Walter(s)
« on: Monday 21 January 19 00:25 GMT (UK) »
My ggg grandmother Caroline Walters (alternate spellings Walter and Waters) was born in Woolwich (at that time Kent) around 1821.

The backdrop:

By the 1841 census, she was a servant at the Welton le Wold, Lincs rectory. The year and place of birth are consistent in all censuses. At first, I figured she may have gone to Lincolnshire as a young woman but I no longer think this is likely. In 1842 she married William Burton in Welton le Wold. One of the witnesses was Ann Walters. Neither name nor occupation of a father is entered.

To keep a long story shortish, I believe this is the same Ann Walters (b. 1788 Scotland; d. Agnes Ann Walter 1875 Lincs, widow of Thomas Walter, private soldier.) who was the mother of an Elizabeth Walters (b. about 1811, Scotland d. Elizabeth Southern, 1881) and James (b. about 1824 Lincolnshire, d. 1892).

I believe it highly likely that Ann is Ann Binnie who married Thomas Walter, Gunner RA, 1810 Edinburg. They had a daughter Elizabeth there in 1811. Elizabeth had two girls before getting married: Mary Walters (who never married) and Rebecca (Bee). Caroline's granddaughter (my great-grandmother)was a domestic in Rebecca's household for a while. Rebecca's husband was a witness at at least one of Caroline's daughters' marriages and one of Elizabeth's stepsons married another of Caroline' daughters. So it is clear that the two families are linked.

When Rebecca Walters married widower Thomas Southern, her father was entered in the records as Thomas.
When James Walters married widow Mary Ann Robinson, his father was entered as Abraham.

While it seems more than just likely that Ann is related to Caroline, my working hypothesis is that she was Caroline's mother. I speculate that Thomas went with his family to Kent (perhaps stationed in the Royal Artillery there.) This would explain why Caroline would have been born in Woolwich, whether or not Thomas was her father. Then Ann (a widow?) made her way up to Lincolnshire, where James was born (baptism in Little Carton, Lincs in 1825 with only Ann listed as a parent ), and that is where the family stayed.

It would help enormously if I could find some birth or baptism information for Caroline! It would be great to be able to at least establish if Ann was, in fact, her mother, and also who her father was. If it was Thomas, I don't know if the members of the Royal Artillery had their own chapels, or kept their own records.

Any help would be most appreciated!

Ard


CNL.DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin;Harding;Williams;Goman;Cock;Browne;Leach;Martin;Hewett. *KNT:Foster;Piper. *ESSX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon;Wellens.  *MDX:Gruber;Shortland;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Ricketts.
*LCN:Burton;Blackburn;Walters; *SCOT:Blair;Dick;Stevenson;Williamson;Halliday;;Gilchrist;Leggat;Davies;Frew;Pollock;Richmond;Houston;McLachlan
 . *NI:Ferguson;Boyd. *DEU:Gruber,Henne,Hohln(Württemberg)Hoffmann(Birkenfeld)

Offline rosie99

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Re: Birth 1821 Woolwich, Kent. Caroline Walter(s)
« Reply #1 on: Monday 21 January 19 08:39 GMT (UK) »
Have you considered that she may be Ann Walters bn c1821 who is also in Lincolnshire (Utterby) in 1841, possibly a sibling of Caroline
HO107/647 bk24 f4 p1

Have you located Thomas Walters military records to see if he was ever stationed at Woolwich

Where was Caroline in 1851/61
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline rosie99

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Re: Birth 1821 Woolwich, Kent. Caroline Walter(s)
« Reply #2 on: Monday 21 January 19 10:33 GMT (UK) »
1851 & 1861 have Caroline as born in London, Middlesex. 

1881 has just London.

1891 has Woolwich, Kent

It looks from the census results that she may not have been born in Woolwich


Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline ard

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Re: Birth 1821 Woolwich, Kent. Caroline Walter(s)
« Reply #3 on: Monday 21 January 19 16:53 GMT (UK) »
Hi Rosie,

In 1821 Woolwich was part of Kent. Later, it was part of Middlesex and London. Nevertheless, the 1901 and 1911 censuses clearly state she was born in Woolwich. Caroline died in 1913 at the age of 92 in Spilsby Lincs where one of her daughters, Emma Johnson,(the informant) lived.

As to who marriage-witness Ann may be, of course the possibilities are many. Firstly, I cannot know her age at that time. However, while Caroline and the other witness, (James?) Franklin, both signed the register, Ann and Caroline's new husband, William Burton, made their mark (x). This also suggests to me that perhaps Ann was an older woman.

My great-grandmother Agnes Ann (nee Hoffmann) was an odd bird, and for some unknown reason, she actually later attached Bee (along with Vere de Vere) to her name. This always intrigued me. So when I found out that Rebecca Bee's maiden name was Walter/Walters/Waters, I knew that it was significant. Before finding out who Rebecca's mother and grandmother were, and the different ways they were linked to the Burton-Walters family, I wasn't even sure which of the surname spellings to settle on! Now I am pretty confident that it is Walter, with and without the s.

My great-grandmother was sent back to England from Canada (to where her family had moved) and worked as a domestic for a time in the household of Henry and Rebecca Bee (1891 census), and then she returned to Quebec to marry my great-grandfather whom she already knew. I may be mistaken, but I think it was not unusual for a young woman to work as a domestic in the household of a family member in order to learn how to be a good homemaker. It's possible as well that the family was trying to discourage her from marrying my g-grandfather.

I'm pretty sure Caroline was related to Ann and her known children. That Ann may be Caroline's mother is simply a working hypothesis, to prove or disprove. Without a birth or baptismal record for Caroline, I cannot know. That is why I would really like to find one!

Ard

CNL.DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin;Harding;Williams;Goman;Cock;Browne;Leach;Martin;Hewett. *KNT:Foster;Piper. *ESSX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon;Wellens.  *MDX:Gruber;Shortland;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Ricketts.
*LCN:Burton;Blackburn;Walters; *SCOT:Blair;Dick;Stevenson;Williamson;Halliday;;Gilchrist;Leggat;Davies;Frew;Pollock;Richmond;Houston;McLachlan
 . *NI:Ferguson;Boyd. *DEU:Gruber,Henne,Hohln(Württemberg)Hoffmann(Birkenfeld)

Offline ard

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Re: Birth 1821 Woolwich, Kent. Caroline Walter(s)
« Reply #4 on: Monday 21 January 19 17:40 GMT (UK) »
And no I haven't found anything conclusive on Thomas Walter. I don't know if he was Scottish or English, only that he married in Scotland.

Canongate,Edinburgh, Midlothian Thomas Walter 3 Aug 1810- Gunner Royal Artillery and Ann Binnie Servant Dukes Street - Daughter of John Binnie Weaver  Witnesses John Page and Robert Watson both of the Royal Artillery

Elizabeth Walter
07 Apr 1811
Christening Place   , NORTH LEITH, MIDLOTHIAN, SCOTLAND
Birth Date   25 Mar 1811

Note that in Lincolnshire censuses Ann and Elizabeth were consistently recorded as being born in Scotland.

Also, my grandfather believed that his mother's mother (Thirza Burton) was Scottish. For the longest time, I couldn't figure out why he might have thought that since the Burtons go way back in Lincolnshire. Only if Caroline's roots were Scottish can I remotely explain that mix-up.

POST EDIT: I believe this to be the death record of Ann Walter(s) who was at least the mother of Elizabeth and James:

Agnes Ann Walter. 24th of July, 1875, South Street, Louth; age 87; ** widow of Thomas Walter, private soldier; cause: Old Age Ramolissment, certified by...; present at death: C or G Lamming???, South Street;.... registered 26 July, 1875, William Parkin, registrar.

Although her name here is recorded as Agnes Ann, the name of the street where she died and her age are consistent with Ann's previous census records. And even though Agnes Ann is not a unique name, I found it particularly interesting that it was the name given to my great-grandmother.

So there are a lot of little coincidences that might be just that, coincidences, but I think they are worth delving into!


CNL.DVN:Knight;Jenkins;Bray;Harvey;West;Judd;Menhinnit;Griffin;Harding;Williams;Goman;Cock;Browne;Leach;Martin;Hewett. *KNT:Foster;Piper. *ESSX:Smith;Baker;Everitt;Willings;Spurgeon;Wellens.  *MDX:Gruber;Shortland;Dukes;Cooper;Appelton;Watts;Hooper;Neale;Ricketts.
*LCN:Burton;Blackburn;Walters; *SCOT:Blair;Dick;Stevenson;Williamson;Halliday;;Gilchrist;Leggat;Davies;Frew;Pollock;Richmond;Houston;McLachlan
 . *NI:Ferguson;Boyd. *DEU:Gruber,Henne,Hohln(Württemberg)Hoffmann(Birkenfeld)