Who was Samuel KYTE's father? (b abt 1820 South Normanton)

[Newfloridian]

Samuel KYTE married Maria BOOT on July 7th 1839. Maria's parents were Thomas BOOT and Sarah BALL. One of the witnesses was Mary BALL who could have been Sarah's younger by three years sister.
Samuel KYTE though presents a problem. He has declared his father to be collier John SHAWCROFT.
That probably indicates that he was illegitimate but have been unable to find any reference to his mother.

Can anyone shed a light on John ShawCROFT

Many thanks - Alan

[Derbysderek]

John Kyte 1775-1846 and Jane Ball.1780-1831.......parents of Samuel.....confusion may  be because Jane was John,s second wife
Father of john Kyte was Francis Kyte 1744-1811..married to Ann Amos b 1745......Grandfather of john kyte was John Kyte 1715.......needs checking out..
Derek

[Newfloridian]

Hi Derek

Have you seen a baptism to support that? I am aware that John Kyte had been married before (Martha Simpson d. 1802 presumably post partum)

John Kyte and Jane Ball had twins (Abraham and Isaac) baptised September 5th 1817 - both died same month. I haven't seen a subsequent baptism for Samuel. And why Shawcroft on the marriage certificate?

It also of interest that Jane Ball had at least one illegitimate child before marriage - presumably to John Kyte - who was known variously as Francis Kyte, Francis Ball Kyte and Francis Ball. I think that baptism was in Blackwell in 1814 but can't find the original.

Interesting family: interesting times!

Alan

[Designer Jeans]

In case you haven't come across it before "A Village of Considerable Extent" (South Normanton) by Pamela Sharpe has

"Illegitimacy seems to rise with poverty from 1795 and the unmarried mothers who claimed relief at this time belonged to families whose names recur in poor relief documents"- Ball, Hind, Kite, Marriott, Bacon, Hill.  Many were sisters or "repeaters" who had two or more illegitimate children.

Illegitimacy was a constant bugbear to the Overseers of the Poor.  When Jane Ball was delivered of a male child on the ninth of January 1809 Thomas Moaks of South Normanton did beget the said bastard child in the body of her and was ordered to pay £1 8s 6d maintenance plus 18d weekly for the keeping and sustenance of the child.  Jane Ball was to pay 9d weekly in case she did not look after the child herself.  By 1812, however, Thomas Moaks was behind in payments to the sum of £3 15s 0d."

I have Mary Gent, a repeater, in my tree.  I found details of the two different men who fathered her daughters in the SN Quarter Sessions records.  If you haven't done this, worth a look for Samuel.

My best guess is that Samuel Kyte is the son of John Shawcross and Jane Ball and was bpt as Samuel Ball or not at all and subsequently assumed the name Kyte, although, as you say, the birth date of circa 1820 is odd given the birth of Abraham and Isaac in 1817.  When and where did John Kyte and Jane Ball marry?

Valerie

[Newfloridian]

I have the date of the marriage of John Kyte to Jane Ball as August 12th 1805 (South Normanton)

I do have a copy of the "A Village" book. My own special interest has been the study of marriages between cousins - either known or unknown. Taking that illegitimacy quote one stage further, We might know that there are two children attributed to a Jane Ball and three children attributed to a Hannah Ball in the Parish records between 1800 and 1810 - all without a named father; we also know from Bastardy records that a Jane Ball had received maintenance for a child from Thomas Moakes and a Jane Ball had received maintenance from a William Marriott. What we don't know is that in a village 121 houses and an estimated population of 588 (in 1788), how many individual Jane or Hannah Balls there might be of young child bearing age living there at the same time. Also the resultant children were usually sent off into forced apprenticeship so it is almost impossible to follow what happened to them. My own take on this is that when you see a marriage pattern between the Ball / Marriott; Ball / Kyte or Marriott / Kyte families midway into the next century (ie two generations further on) these are almost certainly (and more than likely unknowing) marriages between cousins. Illegitimacy persisted well into the 19th century when it was noted that in 1852, 16 out of 54 children baptised in South Normanton were illegitimate.

As it happens I did exchange an email with Pamela Sharpe about 18 months ago. She is now a Professor in the School of Humanities at the University of Tasmania.

Regards - Alan 

[Designer Jeans]

How lovely to have an update on Pamela Sharpe, she couldn't have moved further away if she's tried!  Her book was a great help in learning about South Normanton, where my grandfather Leslie Ward was born in 1894, in the days before the internet. 

Presumably unlikely that the Jane Ball who married John Kyte in 1805 is the mother of Samuel Kyte born circa 1820 son of the elusive John Shawcross?  Shawcross doesn't seem to be much of a Derbyshire name....