Author Topic: Baby Annie Jones 1911 who is she .& why crossed out ?  (Read 2233 times)

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Baby Annie Jones 1911 who is she .& why crossed out ?
« Reply #18 on: Friday 25 January 19 01:19 GMT (UK) »
I cant afford to send for many birth certificates   i was hoping to get clues from a baptism but couldnt find any approrpriate ones on Ancestry .

None of the sons married women called Jones .
But half sister Mary E Jones b1881 birkenhead could have married a Mr Jones ...i have not found a death or marriage for her ...and her father left probate to his 2 spinster daughters 1924 so she could have been left out because she.d married ,died or had a love child .!

Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Baby Annie Jones 1911 who is she .& why crossed out ?
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 27 January 19 05:00 GMT (UK) »
Still not found any appropriate baptisms

Or if Mary E JONES married a
JONES.

There would be too manyAnnies to look up with mmn SMITH in the missing years
 i do find it hard to believe Maria had an 8th child when she was nearing 50
Family story is that Abiah waited for his children to be grown up before moving back to Wales
If they had been separated 2 years in 1911 his youngest  would have been about 7

The family was poor ...so an extra mouth to feed would have been hard .

Could a mother give child fathers surname even if tbey are not married
So for example mother jane Doe ...
No father named
But Baby given Jones Surname anyway

I had example of this in Scotland ...baby given mans surname on assumption couple will mary later ...
They never did but the motber was always named as Mrs M 

Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline Ayashi

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Re: Baby Annie Jones 1911 who is she .& why crossed out ?
« Reply #20 on: Sunday 27 January 19 08:07 GMT (UK) »
I believe I'm right in saying an unmarried woman could only give her child that surname if the father was present at the registration (and so recognised the child as his). That's why sometimes she pretended to be married to the father on the cert when she actually wasn't.


Offline tazzie

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Re: Baby Annie Jones 1911 who is she .& why crossed out ?
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 27 January 19 09:58 GMT (UK) »
As you say there are too many Annie Jones births with the maiden name Smith to check every single one .

Annie could have been born anytime from the start of her marriage onwards. You have found a couple of large gaps where this is possible. I would not look at the recent ones.

Years married and number of children were only required for the head of the house but George supplied far more than needed.........more of an advantage for you.

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Offline brigidmac

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Re: Baby Annie Jones 1911 who is she .& why crossed out ?
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 27 January 19 12:12 GMT (UK) »
If Annie was Maria.s daughter i wonder why she isnt on gravestone with maria and 2 of her 3 daughters .

Maybe i could get someone to look for her grave at Flaybrick cemetary .

Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Baby Annie Jones 1911 who is she .& why crossed out ?
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 27 January 19 21:42 GMT (UK) »
So am i right in thinking child could have been born in 1895 for example lived to be any age ...and would just be recorded with their name ....because age at death would not be correct for census

If this were the case Id expect to finf a burial pf some sort and that Grandad would have mentioned his sister unless it was pre his birth in1899

His other sister Winnie was absolutely adored by her 6 brothers unfortunately she died young in child birth .They got a lovely gravestone for her ...her mothers name joined hers many years later and her baby Olive  b1924 was brought up by grandma Maria and 2 great aunts .
The brothers wouldnt let  baby Olive.s father a doctor take her back to his native Roumania ....
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Baby Annie Jones 1911 who is she .& why crossed out ?
« Reply #24 on: Monday 28 January 19 09:04 GMT (UK) »
Hello
Ive had another look at 1911
Birkenhead census for my grandfather and his family

Its quite a messy family & totally mistranscribed on ancestry as elder brother George Jones is head of household and  *his sister appears as his daughter
The 2nd line has his mother Maria nee Smith down as having been married 28 years and having 8 children 7 living 1 dead

She had 2 children with her first husband Joseph LEA  and 7 with her second husband Abiah JONES who is staying nearby in 1911
There is a line thru those figures and across a sentence which i think was "separated for ...x ? years

There are also crossing outs and rewritings to get her childrens professions correct .
  The youngest of  my grandfathers brothers is aged 10

Under him is Annie Jones No age given
Her name is then crossed out .
Does this mean she was a baby ? Did she die ?
Could she have belonged to one if the jones elder siblings ?

Any ideas ...?I.d like your theories .?


The first thing to look at on the 1911 census is who filled in the schedule.
In this case the schedule was filled in by George, who also claimed to be Head of the household.

This would normally mean that the relationships between him and the other members of the family would be correct.
The majority of the relationships do seem to conform to this assumption but two stick out.
The first has a question mark above the relationships as if queried by the census staff (a daughter aged 14 is not practical)
The second a daughter (Annie) aged 1, she could be his daughter or could possibly be a half-sister but I would tend to favour her being George’s daughter for three reasons.
1) George has already mentioned his half-sister.
2) The mention of a 14 year old female as his daughter to me says he wants to mention his daughter who does not live with him.
3) That second assumption seems to be reinforced by the scoring out of her name possibly by him or more likely by the enumerator when the schedule was collected.

I would suggest the schedule has been corrected twice by census staff, the black corrections (mainly occupations) by the enumerator the red scoring out by the team at the office.

Cheers
Guy
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Offline brigidmac

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Re: Baby Annie Jones 1911 who is she .& why crossed out ?
« Reply #25 on: Monday 28 January 19 11:01 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Guy your explanations are clear and very good assumptions

He WAS  head of household
Mother wasnt working

 14 year old Winnie was his full sister

Where does it say daughters age ...i saw blank column

What do people think about this theory

George.s  fiancee / wife not  living there
There  due to illness work or death

Baby being nursed by his family but died around census time 

 
My sister says if a baby died before baptism it had to be buried outside cemetary is this true ?



Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Baby Annie Jones 1911 who is she .& why crossed out ?
« Reply #26 on: Monday 28 January 19 12:36 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Guy your explanations are clear and very good assumptions

He WAS  head of household
Mother wasnt working

 14 year old Winnie was his full sister

Where does it say daughters age ...i saw blank column

What do people think about this theory

George.s  fiancee / wife not  living there
There  due to illness work or death

Baby being nursed by his family but died around census time 

 
My sister says if a baby died before baptism it had to be buried outside cemetary is this true ?


Sorry I made a couple of errors due to trying to multitask.
As you point out there is no age shown for Annie the column I looked at in error was the died column noting she had died.

I meant to add the the scored out entry in the occupation for Georges mother states "Separated for 2 Years", I looked at both Ancestry & Findmypast but FindMyPast seems clearer.

Though he was the eldest male I would not assume that he would automatically be the head of the household, though it could be his mother and her children moved in with him when she split with Abiah. They are all together on the 1901 census.

All parishioners have a right to be buried in a graveyard, the clergy can refuse to conduct a burial service but they cannot prevent a burial (if the graveyard is still open to burials), even stillborns may be buried in graveyards and even in the body of the church itself. Having said that some clergy did try to discourage the burial of those not baptised in their lifetime.

Hope this helps
Cheers
Guy
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.