Author Topic: Alice Maria MURRAY born abt. 1844 - no record BDM NSW  (Read 1320 times)

Offline aus*jen

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 611
    • View Profile
Alice Maria MURRAY born abt. 1844 - no record BDM NSW
« on: Thursday 31 January 19 01:09 GMT (UK) »
Alice Maria Murray was the daughter of Margaret Jennings and John Murray who married in
Maitland NSW in 1837.  I have details of this family but I'm looking for a baptism record for
Alice.  There is no record for her on NSW BDM although there are early church records for her
siblings Jane Ann and John.  The Vic. BDM index records her marriage to Frederick Eggleston
in 1857 (2373).  Her mother's obituary mentions her daughter Mrs. F. Eggleston.  There
is a death notice for Alice Maria on 28th August 1921 aged 77 years.  This indicates a birth
about 1844.

I am looking for suggestions to locate a baptism for Alice.  The marriage for her parents was
Catholic.  At that time I think the Catholic records for the Hunter Valley NSW were held by St. Mary's Cathedral Sydney.  I note the early church records for St. Mary's may now be held at
the Mitchell Library.  As I live in Brisbane I can't access these.  I am hoping a baptism cert. would
give a location for the family and sponsors names would also be of interest.

Any suggestions appreciated.

Regards,
Jen.
 
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

Offline majm

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 23,305
  • NSW 1806 Bowman Flag Ecce signum.
    • View Profile
Re: Alice Maria MURRAY born abt. 1844 - no record BDM NSW
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 31 January 19 05:14 GMT (UK) »
 :)

Hi,

I am not home, could be several weeks before I get back home, but some thoughts ...
 :)  marrying 1837, yes, possibly the clergy was on a circuit, but yes, he was expected by the NSW civil admin (so still a penal colony, no representative parliament etc), to transmit to his denomination's HQ ... (Diocese) the details of baptisms, burials, weddings of ceremonies he conducted , transmitting four times per year minimum (Jan, April, July, Oct)
 :) also possible to transmit more frequently, and of course if on a circuit, to errr ... delay or misplace the register in the saddle bag ...
So not all records are extant, BUT ...  ;)

Marrying 1837 ... and Alice likely born 1844 ... so not the first born ....

You likely have name of the clergy conducting the ceremony in the Maitland district ... thinking about the location for his register that he kept with him .... and from which he copied his records for transmitting to St Marys Cathedral ... 

Think about any possible older siblings for Alice ... are their baptisms found?  who was clergyman ... same or different from the marriage ... where was the baptism ... part of the Maitland circuit or in a different district ... 

So basically trying to form a view of where Alice would likely have been taken for her baptism ... and then try to figure out who was likely clergyman ....

Sorry, I am not able to get into the actual nitty gritty search...

PS,  I am assuming you have gone right with fine tooth comb : familysearch with Australia as location;  Trove;  NSW BDM;    NSW ARK KIT ...  perhaps available Qld State Library or larger public libraries or perhaps you could contact Ask a Librarian ... https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/archives-resources-kit-ark   (for the printed Guides ... no longer used by NSW Archives, but very informative for background, and gives clues for suggested thingys !) 

Fingers crossed  :D

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline aus*jen

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 611
    • View Profile
Re: Alice Maria MURRAY born abt. 1844 - no record BDM NSW
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 31 January 19 06:33 GMT (UK) »
Hi JM,  Thankyou for your (as usual) thorough and enlightening comments. ;D  Following your
           suggestions re the clergymen a pattern may emerge to trace the whereabouts of the
           family.  I had not considered the Queensland State Library may have early Hunter Valley
           records, I will contact a family history librarian re this possibility.  If not your suggestion
           of Ask a Librarian at Mitchell Library may be successful.  Trove and NSW BDM have proved
           unrewarding.  I have considered the purchase of the early church records from NSW BDM
           but I am not certain that the details would be as comprehensive as those on the actual
           baptism record e.g. sponsors.  I note also that there is no district recorded on the NSW BDM
           birth index for Alice's brother John born in 1851.   The Catholic records from the Maitland
           area are often difficult to interpret unless you understand the concept of the clerygman's
           circuit you have described in your response.  I have a baptism for my 2xgr.aunt
           born in Wallis Plains (Maitland) recorded as being baptised in St. Mary's Sydney.  She was
           the daughter of a convict assigned to Wallis Plains so a trip to Sydney for a baptism would
           not be possible.  The answer of course was that in 1829 she was baptised by a clergyman
           on circuit in the area and her baptism was then recorded as St. Mary's, the church
           responsible for all catholic baptisms, marriages and burials in a time before any Maitland
           churches were built.

           Your assistance is appreciated ;D

           Kind regards,
           Jen.
           
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia


Offline wivenhoe

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,638
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Alice Maria MURRAY born abt. 1844 - no record BDM NSW
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 31 January 19 07:01 GMT (UK) »


The birth year, 1844, suggested by her age at death, 1921, would make Alice MURRAY only 13 at marriage, 1857.

You need to see the 1857 marriage certificate. It will have information that Alice is giving about herself.....more reliable that death details given by an informant.

Offline shanreagh

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 657
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Alice Maria MURRAY born abt. 1844 - no record BDM NSW
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 31 January 19 08:26 GMT (UK) »
Is it possible that in those days the family called themselves or were recorded as Murry?

And two more :)

Is it possible that the parents were married overseas?

So you know the date/s of death for the parents?

Offline whiteout7

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,937
    • View Profile
Re: Alice Maria MURRAY born abt. 1844 - no record BDM NSW
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 31 January 19 08:52 GMT (UK) »
Also equally possible this is her with the mothers name recorded incorrectly

MURRY  MARIA 1317/1845 V18451317 62 JOHN ELIZABETH (NSWBDM)

and this one an older brother

MURRY  JOHN 289/1843 V1843289 134 JOHN (no mothers name recorded, NSWBDM)
Wemyss/Crombie/Laing/Blyth (West Wemyss)
Givens/Normand (Dysart)
Clark/Lister (Dysart)
Wilkinson/Simson (Kettle or Kettlehill)

Offline majm

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 23,305
  • NSW 1806 Bowman Flag Ecce signum.
    • View Profile
Re: Alice Maria MURRAY born abt. 1844 - no record BDM NSW
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 31 January 19 09:15 GMT (UK) »
Also equally possible this is her with the mothers name recorded incorrectly

MURRY  MARIA 1317/1845 V18451317 62 JOHN ELIZABETH (NSWBDM)

and this one an older brother

MURRY  JOHN 289/1843 V1843289 134 JOHN (no mothers name recorded, NSWBDM)

Volume 62 .... that's a possible ... it is Roman Catholic baptisms

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856    scroll down :

Roman Catholic   1840-1855   Vols. 61-72   Reels 5021-5027  fingers crossed those reels may be at Qld State Library perhaps ...  :D 

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline aus*jen

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 611
    • View Profile
Re: Alice Maria MURRAY born abt. 1844 - no record BDM NSW
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 31 January 19 11:50 GMT (UK) »
Wivenhoe, thankyou for your comments.  Yes, 13/14 at marriage.  There is a precedent in this
                family for brides being young at marriage, her mother was 15 and 2 aunts 13 and 16
                so I didn't consider it impossible.  The year 1844 is all I have at present based on her
                death notice in a Perth newspaper, it is a starting point for the search for her baptism
                if in fact such a record exists. Alice may not have been baptised.

Shanreagh, I am not aware that this family used the name Murry, all records I have are Murray.
                  Parents married in 1837 in Maitland NSW, Margaret Jennings of Maitland to John Murray
                  Muswellbrook.  Mother's death was 1903, father's death unknown due to difficulty of
                  isolating correct death from multiple death records of a John Murray on BDM.

Whiteout7   Thankyou for the records, I will check those out anything is possible.

JM              Thankyou for the link and details of the reels I will check those out tomorrow  :D
                  As you say, fingers crossed!

Regards to all,
Jen.
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia

Offline aus*jen

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 611
    • View Profile
Re: Alice Maria MURRAY born abt. 1844 - no record BDM NSW
« Reply #8 on: Friday 01 February 19 06:54 GMT (UK) »
Hi All,   Today I went to QSL to check the NSW early church records for Alice Maria Murray.
            Her sister Anne Jane was located with a baptism in West Maitland in 1842.  No results
            were found in 1843 and when I reached 1844 records - there were no records - due
            to damaged records and those too feint to copy.  This may explain the lack of an entry
            in NSW BDM for Alice.   The Catholic church in West Maitland could possibly still have
            a legible register in their archives.

Jen.
Boland   NSW, Australia
Gibbs   S.Aust. & Queensland
Jennings NSW, Australia
Page  Coventry UK, Queensland Aust.
Sellars (Sellard) Gloucestershire
Kirby  Lechlade, Gloucestershire
Hampshire  Stepney, Middlesex & Hampshire
Goddard,  Isle of Wight
Cushen, Isle of Wight
Keys,  Tyrone Ireland & NSW Australia