Author Topic: Need another set of eyes to date and identify person in photos - Moore/Sandford  (Read 1182 times)

Offline xpress4

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Re: Need another set of eyes to date and identify person in photos - Moore/Sandford
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 03 February 19 16:05 GMT (UK) »
Hi Milliedpede,

He was born in 1851. Since my grandmother said it was him in the photo, I'd always assumed the other two in the pic were his siblings. Because of the way she is dressed, I'd assumed the picture was taken late 1860's early 1870's. I previously thought it might have been a last family photo before he married or moved away, etc. which both happened early 1870's.

But once I realized the woman in the group photo might be my GGrandmother, it changed everything about the photo and left me confused. They married in 1872. Their first son was born in 1873. I can't figure out who the boy would be if this is a picture of my GGGrandparents. GGGgrandfather had a younger brother that would line-up as far as age. But why would he be in the picture and holding her hand? Maybe her younger brother, but then again, why would he be in the photo?

Confusing! :(
MOORE, LAW, SANDFORD, DELANEY

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Offline Treetotal

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Re: Need another set of eyes to date and identify person in photos - Moore/Sandford
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 03 February 19 16:13 GMT (UK) »
I would say the trio photo was 1860s. It is a big help if you can post the whole image including corners and the backs if possible as they give dating clues.
I don't think the second lady is the same lady as the time difference is too great in my opinion,

Added
 I could be wrong, looking at it again, the features are very similar.
Carol
CAPES Hull. KIRK  Leeds, Hull. JONES  Wales,  Lancashire. CARROLL Ireland, Lancashire, U.S.A. BROUGHTON Leicester, Goole, Hull BORRILL  Lincolnshire, Durham, Hull. GROOM  Wishbech, Hull. ANTHONY St. John's Nfld. BUCKNALL Lincolnshire, Hull. BUTT Harbour Grace, Newfoundland. PARSONS  Western Bay, Newfoundland. MONAGHAN  Ireland, U.S.A. PERRY Cheshire, Liverpool.
 
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Offline Milliepede

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Re: Need another set of eyes to date and identify person in photos - Moore/Sandford
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 03 February 19 16:18 GMT (UK) »
Is he holding her hand?  I can't see it clearly but the two of them look somewhat alike so maybe they were siblings.

When was GGrandmother born?
Hinchliffe Huddersfield Wiltshire

Offline Treetotal

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Re: Need another set of eyes to date and identify person in photos - Moore/Sandford
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 03 February 19 16:21 GMT (UK) »
She doesn't appear to be wearing a wedding ring, so they could be siblings as Millie suggested.
Carol
CAPES Hull. KIRK  Leeds, Hull. JONES  Wales,  Lancashire. CARROLL Ireland, Lancashire, U.S.A. BROUGHTON Leicester, Goole, Hull BORRILL  Lincolnshire, Durham, Hull. GROOM  Wishbech, Hull. ANTHONY St. John's Nfld. BUCKNALL Lincolnshire, Hull. BUTT Harbour Grace, Newfoundland. PARSONS  Western Bay, Newfoundland. MONAGHAN  Ireland, U.S.A. PERRY Cheshire, Liverpool.
 
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Offline xpress4

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Re: Need another set of eyes to date and identify person in photos - Moore/Sandford
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 03 February 19 16:33 GMT (UK) »
Sorry, it is a bad copy. My mother has the original and now she can't find it. That would have helped for sure. They are either holding hands or his hand is on her dress and hers is on top of his.

How old would you say the two older people in the photo are? That might narrow the options:

Of the likely people: GGGrandfather was born in 1851, his younger brother in 1865, his sister in 1848, GGGrandmother in 1850.

The second photo definitely in the early 1890's because the little girl, my GGgrandmother, was born in 1885.

I agree, it doesn't appear she is wearing a ring. However, the photo quality is so poor, it is hard to tell for sure.
MOORE, LAW, SANDFORD, DELANEY

Offline Milliepede

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Re: Need another set of eyes to date and identify person in photos - Moore/Sandford
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 03 February 19 22:17 GMT (UK) »
Quote
How old would you say the two older people in the photo are?

She looks no older than 25 to me.  He could be a little older say 27. 
Hinchliffe Huddersfield Wiltshire

Offline russell12

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Re: Need another set of eyes to date and identify person in photos - Moore/Sandford
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 03 February 19 22:39 GMT (UK) »
Unlikely to be the same woman since the first picture dates to the mid 1860s (more specifically from 1863-1867);



Circled in red is a design feature called a 'mancheron' - a high sleeve cap. A style which started in the mid 1840s and gradually fazed out by the mid 1860s.



On the right you can see a very similar extant bodice (a MET museum deaccession) which has been dated to 1865. The trimming on the cuff, mid torso waistband, front button closure, mancheron sleeve cap and crescent sleeve shape are all very similar.



The young boy is also wearing 'mule slippers' - which were an extremely popular part of casual menswear in the early 1860s. The shoes in comparison are an extant example from the early 1860s (the owner took the liberty of modelling them for us). You can see the 'v' shaped vamp and square toe cap are very similar, and I suspect that the pair the boy is wearing would have been decorated with some kind crewel-embroidery (as was fashionable at the time).

Last but not least the hairstyle;



The early 1860s favoured a severe middle parting, with straight well ironed hair which was pulled tightly across the scalp - which was then 'managed' into either a low (emphasis on that) simple bun or (for special occasions) a plait. The fashion plate in comparison is an 1862 hair tutorial from Harpers Bazaar. The later 1860s style began to add more volume to the back of the hair and overall became less 'severe' in appearance.

I would probably predict the woman in the photo to be around 20 years old - putting her birth date c. 1840s. She would have been 50/60 in the early Edwardian period/late 1890s - whether or not the woman in the second picture looks mid 50s is up to you... I'd say not, but saying that, there is an undeniable resemblance (so I could be wrong).

The woman in the second pic is wearing a calico dress. These are often thought of as 'worker' dresses and don't necessarily show off the latest Parisian fashions  :P The print is very 1890s. I'm not a print expert (no surprises there), so I can't give you an exact date on the fabric. What I can tell you is that the picture definitely wouldn't be the early 1890s - it would be the mid or late 1890s; and that's all down to the hairstyle.



Above is a calico print worker dress; dated by the Augusta Auctions to be c. 1890s (they don't give an exact date which is annoying!). You can see the similarity in the sleeves, print, fit of the dress and neckline - all of it is very practical in design. I believe that the woman in the photos dress may also have a front closure which has been cleverly hidden by a well placed ribbon!

Lastly - the hairstyle (and the reason why I say late 1890s - if not the early Edwardian period - were talking about a very narrow period between 1900-1903 here).



^ Just to prove my point I made a very scruffy hair timeline from photos with the precise dates.

As you can see the dress and hairstyle point to the late 1890s - and I could even stretch the date to the early Edwardian period; going by how voluminous her hairstyle, it really resembles a Gibson do (the purpose of the Gibson hair was to not only 'look' good but distribute the weight of the growing Edwardian hat - and trust me - I own a massive antique 1912 picture hat and without such a bouffant the brim of the hat really 'digs' into the forehead... not comfortable).

Hope this helps.

EDIT: In fact - on second thoughts, I think the resemblance is too similar for it not to be the same person! I believe it is the same woman  :)

Offline xpress4

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Re: Need another set of eyes to date and identify person in photos - Moore/Sandford
« Reply #16 on: Monday 04 February 19 01:09 GMT (UK) »
This is wonderful! Thank you so much for taking the time to put this together. I find it fascinating!

As to the dates, I'm at a loss. The dates you outline for the first photo would add up if they were siblings. Although in 1867 my GGGgrandfather would have been 16 so that might be a push, but it could be his sister as she would have been 22 in '67 and his brother would have been 13 in '67.

It's the other photo that scrambles it for me. My GG grandmother's sister sent this to her from England to the U.S. and across it is written "Mother and You". If that's true, the subjects would have been born in 1885 and 1850. Seems off for late 1890's doesn't it? Ugh.

I may have to write this off to "will never know" which is so frustrating as these are two of the oldest photos I have and the clues are there just can't answer them.

This community is wonderful and I truly appreciate your time  :)
MOORE, LAW, SANDFORD, DELANEY

Offline shanreagh

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Re: Need another set of eyes to date and identify person in photos - Moore/Sandford
« Reply #17 on: Monday 04 February 19 05:38 GMT (UK) »
I keep coming back to the first photograph as there is some thing not quite right about it to me.  On the surface this is about the clothes of the younger man/boy. 

Oddities

1   Clothes seem very large for a smallish boy
2   His arm seems to be the sleeve only and is not actively being grasped/acknowledged by the sister.
The brother is actively acknowledging his sister by resting his hand on her shoulder. His arm however rests on the back of the chair behind the boy
3   the boy sits across two chairs. The sister seems to sit on one. or perhaps it is one of those twirly couches that have a seat and three separete looking backs.
4 I  am trying to see if there are just chair legs showing or if there is a posing stand there as well.

For this reason I am wondering if the photograph is either
1 one that has been added in a a later date, unlikely.....but look at the sleeve on magnification
2 or a post mortem photograph. (OP Google this just for written  explanation no need to look at the photographs....it was not unknown to pose)

Points against this are that the boy's eyes look lively.
he may just be wearing big clothes as he may not have any suitable.

Would there have been a member of the sister/brother's family who died in 1860s?

I think we need some guidance on the male with hand on shoulder of female as a social indicator in photographs.  I am aware that later than this wedding photographs often showed the bride standing and groom sitting. That family groups had engaged/married  couples shown in this way.  Other photographs  that showed  hands resting on books indicated scholarship and often holding a letter meant bad news.  Would brother sister have a link like this? Could it be to acknowledge or console the living sibling?

Has anyone got a view? Can anyone 'read' the photograph, especially the hand on shoulder part?

PS Russell12 the pictorial essay is great. Thank you.