Author Topic: Unknown soldiers  (Read 247 times)

Offline Toni Abram

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Unknown soldiers
« on: Monday 04 February 19 18:34 GMT (UK) »
I am trying to learn more a bout a photo I was recently given by a relative.  The photo and what I have been able to learn so far can be found at https://tonilouiseabram.com/2018/04/04/unknown-soldiers/ and I would love to know if anyone here can tell me anything further.

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Offline MaxD

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Re: Unknown soldiers
« Reply #1 on: Monday 04 February 19 20:58 GMT (UK) »
Dress of the mid 1800s is not my field so my one thought is general.  Rifle Volunteers were, as your piece says, part time volunteers and quite separate from the regular army,  They were not created until 1859 and were organised and run by county authorities rather than the War Office who kept a benevolent eye.

They certainly had uniforms similar to those in the pic.  However, the piece conflates the regular 51st with the volunteers at a time when the latter didn't exist and I would rather see the paragraph omitted.  I leave it to others to confirm that the uniforms are those of the 51st in the 1840s.

For what it is worth. 

MaxD
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Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

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Offline maybaby

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Re: Unknown soldiers
« Reply #2 on: Monday 04 February 19 21:15 GMT (UK) »
Thank you Max.

Offline jim1

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Re: Unknown soldiers
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 05 February 19 12:25 GMT (UK) »
Certainly not 1840's. Photography didn't arrive until 1839 & all photos were Daguerreotypes followed by ambrotypes, this is neither of those so you need come forward to the 1860's at the earliest.
This would tie in with MaxD's info re the Volunteers formation.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
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Online ShaunJ

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Re: Unknown soldiers
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 05 February 19 12:43 GMT (UK) »
Looks like 1880's or 1890's to me. When was that type of Field Service Cap introduced?

Could it be an Australian militia unit?
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Offline Regorian

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Re: Unknown soldiers
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 05 February 19 16:43 GMT (UK) »
Certainly a 'militia' type unit. The grey uniform points towards Rifle Volunteers. The atmosphere to around 1900.

I found this for 1st New South Wales Volunteers Rifles (or should that be Rifle Volunteers). They do have the same design cuffs and trefoils. This is not a positive identification of your photograph however. Taken in the 1860's probably. The Australians didn't hang around, I also found a parade photograph of same unit from 1861. The British ones were formed 1859 and 1860. It wasn't as though Napoleon III would invade Australia.

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/uniforms2/1st-nsw-vol-rifles.jpg.   
Griffiths Llandogo, Mitcheltroy, Mon. and Whitchurch Here (Also Edwards),  18th C., Griffiths FoD 19th Century.

Offline John915

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Re: Unknown soldiers
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 05 February 19 20:53 GMT (UK) »
Good evening,

Pale or mid grey uniforms were worn by regulars in the 1880s. I have a picture of a pte in the 1st Berkshires showing this (49th). I will look out the book and scan it. From memory it is a rear view though and is worm with a tropical service helmet.

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Rider (Fulham)
Stephens (Somerset)
Kentfield (Essex)

Offline John915

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Re: Unknown soldiers
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 06 February 19 18:14 GMT (UK) »
Good evening,

The grey tweed uniform appeared about 1881. Troops who served in the Sudan were wearing it but it was replaced by khaki near the end of the campaign.

I don't know where else it may have been worn apart from the Dorsets who wore it on home service during it's trial period.

John915
Stephens, Fuller, Tedham, Bennett, Ransome (Sussex)
Rider (Fulham)
Stephens (Somerset)
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Offline T1

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Re: Unknown soldiers
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 06 February 19 18:33 GMT (UK) »
These are certainly volunteer infantry (not regulars), wearing pale grey uniforms that were common among rifle volunteer battalions, though becoming less popular from the 1880s onwards.  The Austrian knot decoration worn on the sleeve was a special mark of the volunteer soldier.  Based on the pattern of cap worn, this photo can be no earlier than about 1892.

No matter what you have been told by any museum or library service, there is absolutely no chance this photo is any earlier than this date, or that it shows British regular soldiers in Australia.

Quite a few Volunteer units wore similar uniforms, but the "thick" appearance of the Austrian knot is rather unusual.  Based on this feature, I believe these men belong to the 1st Northamptonshire Rifle Volunteer Corps.

As it happens, quite similar uniforms to these were worn by some volunteer corps in South Australia in the late 1880s, but this was before the cap shown was adopted in the 1880s.

T