Author Topic: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record  (Read 374 times)

Offline what0101

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« on: Wednesday 06 February 19 11:54 GMT (UK) »
Hello!

A while ago I got help translating this marriage record:

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634243#page/41/mode/1up
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kny/

I was told that the last line refers to a dispensation for consanguinity. This are my earliest Irish ancestors that I can trace, so it would be very helpful for me tracing them further to know how they were related. It appears to say 4th degree, so I assume that is first cousins. Am I on the right track?


RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline oldohiohome

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 449
    • View Profile
Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 06 February 19 14:24 GMT (UK) »
I Googled "degrees of consanguinity ireland" and found:

Relationships, through either blood (consanguinity) or marriage (affinity) were recorded, and marriage dispensations were granted, by "degree". A first degree relationship would indicate siblings; a second degree relationship would indicate first cousins; third degree meant second cousins; and fourth degree indicated third cousins.

http://www.islandregister.com/consanguinity.html

Thus Dr. Kelly’s dispensation for John and Mary Clarke recorded as 4th and 4th degree revealed they were third cousins who shared a common great-great-grandparent.

https://cotyroneireland.com/marriages/clarkejohnmary.html

There is lot more detail on both of those pages.

Amazing that they knew they were 3rd cousins. I spent years finding 3rd cousins, of course they were scattered all over the world by my generation.
Cambridgeshire: Billups, Cropley; Derbyshire: Jenkinson, Gratton; Co Down: O'Rourke, Rodgers, Cunningham

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline what0101

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 07 February 19 00:11 GMT (UK) »
I'm getting very tangled up because I am finding many references to fourth degree of consanguinity being first cousins, and many saying it's third cousins. That's a big difference!

Offline Maiden Stone

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,267
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 07 February 19 00:19 GMT (UK) »
I'm getting very tangled up because I am finding many references to fourth degree of consanguinity being first cousins, and many saying it's third cousins. That's a big difference!
I've also found contradictory information about degrees of consanguinity.

Offline Maiden Stone

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,267
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 07 February 19 01:20 GMT (UK) »
https://cotyroneireland.com/marriages/clarkejohnmary.html

There is lot more detail on both of those pages.

That link to "Marrying Cousins & Catholic Church Research" has this: "In Canon Law the degree of relationship is the number of generational steps to the common ancestor".

Catholic Marriage Dispensations
www.ottawavalleyirish.com/2011/08/marital-dispensations.html

Catholic Encyclopedia (New Advent)
Consanguinity (in Canon Law)
www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm

Studying relationship charts which are on some of the sites helps to clarify.
It's pointed out on one site that priests didn't always work out relationships correctly.

Offline Maiden Stone

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,267
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 07 February 19 01:40 GMT (UK) »
I'm getting very tangled up because I am finding many references to fourth degree of consanguinity being first cousins, and many saying it's third cousins. That's a big difference!
Marriage of first cousins is not generally allowed by Catholic Church. Papal dispensation is required.
I've browsed marriage register for parish of one of my families. There were plenty of 4th-4th degree, 3rd-3rd, 3rd-4th, even a few 2nd degree (2nd-3rd, 2nd-5th). I didn't find any 2nd-2nd which would have been a marriage of first cousins.
If you browse the marriage register for your ancestor's parish you will probably see other weddings marked 4th degrees of consanguinity. 

Offline what0101

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #6 on: Friday 08 February 19 18:34 GMT (UK) »
Thanks, this is interesting.

The site I was looking at was this one, which is based on canon law and says that first cousins are fourth degree.

This chart on Wikipedia says the same, but also says that the method for counting changed in 1215.  ??? ??? ???



Offline Maiden Stone

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,267
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #7 on: Friday 08 February 19 22:52 GMT (UK) »
Thanks, this is interesting.

The site I was looking at was this one, which is based on canon law and says that first cousins are fourth degree.

That's one I've read before and may have been what I was thinking of when I said in my reply #3 that information is contradictory. I found that explanation complicated.
I do know that Catholics are not supposed to marry their first cousins. Anglicans can. Dispensations for 1st cousin marriages are only supposed to be granted for serious reasons e.g. for the sake of peace which is why members of royal houses were granted them.

Offline what0101

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #8 on: Friday 08 February 19 23:01 GMT (UK) »
It just seems strange to me that you'd have to get a dispensation for a 3rd cousin marriage. Third cousins are not very closely related, and it seems like in small communities in rural Ireland in the 1800s everyone would have been third cousins. Then again, I don't know anything about Catholicism nor rural Irish communities in the 1800s, so...