Author Topic: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record  (Read 3381 times)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #27 on: Sunday 23 June 19 00:59 BST (UK) »
Also, I do see what looks to be the same dispensation if you go one page up (earlier), it's in the upper left labeled #30. Maybe that's easier to read?
First word looks a bit like first word in Stack-Moloney marriage. Is the tall letter in the middle an elaborate t?  First letter of 2nd word looks like s. Wexflyer may be right about "salus" . The only word I'm sure about in both is "fuit" (was), which is no help at all in understanding the sense.
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #28 on: Sunday 23 June 19 01:29 BST (UK) »
I agree with Wexflyer reply #18 about dispensations for 1st cousin marriages. They were only supposed to be granted for serious reasons.
See my replies #3, 4, 5, 7 and 9 and read the links. See also links in reply#14; both writers noted that priests didn't always get it right.

Correspondence between a priest and his bishop regarding a proposed 1st cousin marriage, from "Dispensation Request from Father Angus MacEachan 16th July 1817" on Don MacDonald's website, cited in my reply #15:
The priest "seeks bishop's permission to marry a couple who are 1st cousins, thus requiring a dispensation  of the 2nd degree of consanguinity".
A translation from French of extracts from the bishop's reply:
"All of Mr MacDonald's arguments fail against my lack of power to dispense in the degrees in question ..
The Holy See delegated to me this power for a limited number of cases. That number has been exceeded. .  Advise him to submit his request directly to Rome. It is the only way he will obtain the desired dispensation."
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Offline what0101

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #29 on: Sunday 28 June 20 16:11 BST (UK) »
Well, I've been brought back to this by a notice that this topic was split into two (but I don't know what left and where it went).

When I was at RootsTech last year I went a talk about marriages in Irish records. The speaker was from eneclann.ie and very interesting.

In my notes from her talk, I wrote down that 4th degree is 2nd cousins and 3rd degree is 1st cousins.

I also followed up with the speaker after the conference to see if she'd give her opinion on this document, and she thinks it says:

in 4* & 4* Cont~s (Consanguinitis), et disp(o)nes fuit, ie  the couple are related in the 4th degree of consanguinity, and was 'dispensed'


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #30 on: Monday 29 June 20 00:53 BST (UK) »
"Marrying Cousins in the Catholic Church Research" (noted in reply #1 by oldohiohome
https://www.cotyroneireland.com/marriages/clarkejohnmary.html
"In Canon Law the degree of relationship is the number of steps to the common ancestor"

The common ancestor was a great-great-grandparent. As Wexflyer said (reply 22) they were 3rd cousins.
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #31 on: Monday 29 June 20 01:52 BST (UK) »
This from the topic "Consanguinity in Canon Law" in "New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia"
Paragraphs headed "Mode of Calculation"
"In calculating the degree of consanguinity, special attention must be paid to three things, the line, the degree and the stock or root. The stock or root is the common ancestor ... from whom descend as from the nearest common bond the persons whose blood-relationship to be determined  ....  The blood relationships computed according to the distance from the stock whence it is derived and this is the rule by which degrees or steps on consanguinity are determined."

It then mentions similarities and differences between Roman civil law and canon law and different ways of computing degrees of relationships.

"But the Canon Law, in the collateral line of consanguinity, computes for marriage one series only of generations, and if the series are unequal, only the longer one. If the two series are equal, the distance is the number of degrees from the common stock. Thus brother and sister are in the first degree, first cousins in the second degree; uncle and niece in the second because the niece is 2 degrees from grandfather, who is the common stock."
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #32 on: Monday 29 June 20 02:06 BST (UK) »
Thanks, this is interesting.

The site I was looking at was this one, which is based on canon law and says that first cousins are fourth degree.

This chart on Wikipedia says the same, but also says that the method for counting changed in 1215.  ??? ??? ???

Information on that first link to website Canon Law Made Easy conflicts with "New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia" in my last post. The question and inaccurate answer about cousins marrying is duplicated on Catholic Exchange website https://catholicexchange.com/can-cousins-marry-in-the-church

The chart on Wiki doesn't clarify anything imo.

There are different ways of calculating consanguinity. Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches have their methods.
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #33 on: Monday 29 June 20 02:10 BST (UK) »
Even though I cannot read it, I assume that the 4x4 bit must mean it's cosanguinity and not another type, such as affinity or lack of banns, because only cosanguinity would have degrees mentioned, right?


 Dispensations of affinity were recorded in the same way except it would say "affinity" or an abbreviation for it.
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Offline GR2

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #34 on: Monday 29 June 20 10:00 BST (UK) »
There's one word I can't quite make out, but the Latin reads

in 4o & 4o g[radu] con[sanguinita]tis [.] fuit dispensatum

in the 4th and 4th degree of consanguinity [..] there was a dispensation given

Offline ellenkish

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #35 on: Monday 29 June 20 12:19 BST (UK) »
I'm not sure if the addition of my reply and question about the marriage of John Stapleton and Bridget Maher was the trigger to your responses, but am believing that it was (I can't find my actual reply post).

GR2 - were you responding to my post - and translating from their record?

If so, thanks.