Author Topic: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record  (Read 3378 times)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 09 February 19 00:42 GMT (UK) »
It just seems strange to me that you'd have to get a dispensation for a 3rd cousin marriage. Third cousins are not very closely related, and it seems like in small communities in rural Ireland in the 1800s everyone would have been third cousins. Then again, I don't know anything about Catholicism nor rural Irish communities in the 1800s, so...

On the other hand, they would not be likely to obtain a dispensation for a 1st cousin marriage unless there was a grave reason for the marriage and without permission from the Vatican, which would have taken a long time and been expensive.
The priest also had to take into account any previous marriages and relationships between the families and set them out in the dispensation application. A parish priest could grant dispensations for more distant degrees of consanguinity; decisions on closer degrees had to be referred upwards and cost more.
I imagine working out all these relationships would have been part of the skill-set of a matchmaker.  :)

Kilmovee is a rural parish in Mayo. Plenty of marriages involving 3rd and 4th degrees. A few 2x3 which I think is first cousin once removed.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0137
Marriages 1824-1848 microfilm 04224/02
Marriages 1854-1880 microfilm 04224/05

1840
page 54;  20th Jan. Thos ? Gordon & Briget Grady  2x3
p.     55; 7th Feb. Ant? Andrew? Grady & Mary Kirins  2x3
p.     55; 17th Feb. Jas Dalton & Mary Forkan  3x3
p.     55; 27th Feb. Pat Duffy & Winy Duffy   3x3
p.     57; 2nd. March  John Glavey? & Honor Kine 2x3
1841
page 60; 22nd. Feb. Michael Duffy & Winy Duffy 2x3
1856
             2nd. Feb. Patrick Duffy & Maria Duffy  2x3 consan. (Written after this was "paid bishop".)
February was most popular month for weddings.
Duffy was a common name. I don't know if the Winy Duffy who married Feb. 1840 was the same woman who married a year later or if the Pat Duffy of 1840 and 1856 were the same man.
None of my Irish ancestors whose marriages were in church registers seem to have married relatives so I have no personal evidence to offer.
I wish the priests who conducted the marriages of my English Catholic ancestors had recorded degrees of consanguinity to give me some clues as to how they were related. I have 2 lines with recurring surnames, including 3 pairs of brides and grooms with same surnames.

Cowban

Offline what0101

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 09 February 19 01:10 GMT (UK) »
If we're making wishlists, I wish Ireland had adopted the Scottish method of including the maiden name of the mother and marriage date of the parents on birth records. These records are not easy to wrap my head around!

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 09 February 19 01:52 GMT (UK) »
It just seems strange to me that you'd have to get a dispensation for a 3rd cousin marriage.
You don't or rather they didn't. Dispensations are required for 2nd and 3rd degree consanguinity only. 4th degree consanguinity or higher does not require a dispensation.
There are reasons other than consanguinity for a dispensation.
 I thought the reason for dispensation in this case might have been for a marriage in Advent but the wedding was early in November so was a few weeks before start of Advent.  Lent and Advent are periods of penance and regular fasting; marriages are not supposed to be solemnized during those times, unless they are urgent. Hence the traditional popularity of Easter weddings and why there were so many in February, before Lent began. Kilmovee marriage register has a note about forbidden time (in Latin) next to marriages from late November to 1st week of Jan.
Another reason for a dispensation is a relaxation of the requirement for reading banns on 3 Sundays in bride's and groom's parishes. A dispensation from reading or publishing banns 3 times may be relaxed if the wedding has to take place quickly, for instance: if there is a child on the way; if one party, usually the husband, has to leave soon after the wedding. It's similar to a marriage licence issued in England in 18th & 19th centuries

Marriage Dispensation in the Catholic Church explains. It's about Quebec but most of it is relevant elsewhere. "It is very common for those about to emigrate to have a banns dispensation."
 It has a simple table for working out consanguinity.  :)
genprof.net/marriage-dispensations-in-the-catholic-church

I surmise that the dispensation in the 1836 marriage was not connected to the couple being related.
 

Cowban


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 09 February 19 04:09 GMT (UK) »
If we're making wishlists, I wish Ireland had adopted the Scottish method of including the maiden name of the mother and marriage date of the parents on birth records. These records are not easy to wrap my head around!
Maiden name of mother is in Irish civil birth registers. Registration began 1864. Mother's maiden name is often in Catholic baptism register.
The most detailed record in a marriage register which I've seen was Swords, County Dublin. Both parents of groom and bride were named. Abodes of parents and witnesses were included.
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Offline what0101

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 22 June 19 00:19 BST (UK) »
I'm back to this and have adjusted the image in Photoshop and can read a bit more...but I still don't know what it means. I'm interested in the dispensation part particularly, I know the witnesses, etc. now.

So at the bottom I see 4x4 Eiutio gshus fuil
dispinsation


Any Latin readers willing to have another look?


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 22 June 19 20:11 BST (UK) »
I looked at the register again as well.
I see it as "contio  _lius  fuit
dispensation "
The word I read as "contio" may be a contraction for the Latin word for consanguinity. I can't make out the letter before "lius". Freely translated it means a dispensation was obtained.
The last word on the bottom line seems to be the name of a townland, judging from the way other marriages are set out on same page.
Browsing entries on the same page and adjacent pages of registers is often helpful to become familiar with  priest's handwriting and format. It didn't help in this case. I couldn't spot any other marriages with a note about consanguinity.
Fees varied depending on whether the decision was referred to parish priest or a higher official. The priest in charge of the marriage register had to balance the books and ensure he forwarded the correct amount to the bishop every quarter or half-year or whenever. The priest had to be certain that he'd collected the right number of half-crowns, 3 shillings & sixpences, or whatever the fee was. Some registers have a note "paid the bishop".

These 2 explain marriage dispensations from a family history point of view. They are written by Canadian researchers.  They are easier to read and understand than the explanations of canon law on marriage in the Catholic Encyclopaedia and Catholic websites.
 
"The Concepts of Consanguinity and Age of Majority"
www.islandregister.com/consanguinity.html#consanguinity
It has a link to  "Worksheet for Tracing Dispensations of Consanguinity" on the same website.
Quotation: "Remember that errors do exist in marriage records".

"Catholic Marriage Dispensations"
www.ottawavalleyirish.com/2011/08/marital-dispensations.html
This makes the same point that priests were not always correct in their calculations of degrees of relationship.




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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 22 June 19 20:59 BST (UK) »
P.S. to links I posted in reply #14.
Ottawa Valley Irish site has a link to an article "Some Notes on Marriage Dispensations in Roman Catholic Records" by Don MacDonald on his "The Brick Walls" website. It's part of an article he wrote for Island Register website (the other one I mentioned in reply #14). It's also a clarification of his article on "Island Register", in response to some questions and comments. He stresses that there may have been *many reasons for marriage dispensations. Examples of reasons: a minor whose parents were dead or too far away to contact; no Catholic church in the area in which to have banns read. There is a link to an exchange of correspondence in 1817 between a priest and bishop regarding a request for a dispensation on grounds of consanguinity and a follow-up piece on what happened to the young couple in question. "Dispensation Request from Father Angus MacEachan".
* From memory: there is a long list of reasons for dispensations in a Catholic text I've read previously.
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Offline what0101

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 22 June 19 22:45 BST (UK) »
Thank you for your reply. I have been reading about dispensations and have been learning about the various kinds, which is why I wanted to revisit this one. Even though I cannot read it, I assume that the 4x4 bit must mean it's cosanguinity and not another type, such as affinity or lack of banns, because only cosanguinity would have degrees mentioned, right?

Also, I do see what looks to be the same dispensation if you go one page up (earlier), it's in the upper left labeled #30. Maybe that's easier to read?

Online oldohiohome

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Re: Consanguinity mentioned in marriage record
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 22 June 19 22:57 BST (UK) »
Since I posted earlier on this thread, I have been told that 4th degree of consanguinity meant the marriage mates were first cousins. you count yourself as 1, your parent = 2, their sibling = 3, their child = 4.
The person who told me was making an educated guess, but it fits better with the records I have seen.

Modified Jun 23, 2019
This is not correct, see later posts by wexflier and maiden stone.