Author Topic: Mystery: Why g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 and not earlier  (Read 2384 times)

Offline NewHudsonRyans

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Mystery: Why g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 and not earlier
« on: Wednesday 06 February 19 21:41 GMT (UK) »
I've been puzzling over this for years.  My g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 to Pennsylvania.  I know that the famine was felt in Tipperary but that it was essentially over by the end of the 1840s, so their emigration was not compelled by that.

In Pennsylvania my g-grandfather worked in a coal mine along with his brother-in-law Thomas Lynch, who had brought his family in 1859 from Lancashire in the UK where he also was a miner.  At this time the coal fields in this part of Pennsylvania were just being developed and I wonder whether the families decided to go there, to get in on the ground floor.

My g-grandmother outlived her husband by 20 years but unfortunately she died (as a result of the so-called Spanish Flu) a few years before my dad was born, so he never had a chance to ask her, and apparently no information was passed down by his father either.

So it's a mystery; was there some event in Tipperary in the mid 1860s that might explain why they left?  I expect they were tenant farmers so it was quite a lifestyle change.

-- Mike

Online Drosybont

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Re: Mystery: Why g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 and not earlier
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 06 February 19 21:53 GMT (UK) »
With emigration it may help to think of "pull factors" as well as "push factors".  It's quite common with people I've looked at to follow where relatives have already gone.  Although the work would have been tough and quite a change from agriculture, if it provided a steady wage, that may have been attractive, depending how well farming was doing at the time.

Drosybont
Hotham, Guilliatt, Brown, Winter, Buck, Webster, Mortimore
Richards, Meredith, Gower, Davies, Todd, Westmacott, Hill
Mid C19 Cardiff and Haverfordwest, the Marychurch family.

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Mystery: Why g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 and not earlier
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 07 February 19 02:00 GMT (UK) »
Read the section on emigration on Irish Genealogy Toolkit
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com
Genealogy>Emigration
Page 2 about emigration in 19th century. It says there were 3 distinct phases.
1815-1845: 1 million
1846-1855: 2.5 million
1856-1914: 4 million
It's pointed out that these figures are probably an underestimation as it's difficult to ascertain how many left and settled in Britain.
There is a chart, arranged by province and county for the decade 1851-1860. Total for Tipperary for the decade was 80,000. Approx. 32,000 left 1851-3, subsequent years annual numbers were in single-figure thousands.
Cowban

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Mystery: Why g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 and not earlier
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 07 February 19 02:12 GMT (UK) »
I've been puzzling over this for years.  My g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 to Pennsylvania.  I know that the famine was felt in Tipperary but that it was essentially over by the end of the 1840s, so their emigration was not compelled by that.

So it's a mystery; was there some event in Tipperary in the mid 1860s that might explain why they left?  I expect they were tenant farmers so it was quite a lifestyle change.

-- Mike
System of tenant farming and landholding changed after the Famine. Until then land had been subdivided between adult sons - hence the dependence on potatoes. Post-Famine, one son took over the land from his father. Other sons had to look elsewhere to make a living. Some managed by working in Britain, in either seasonal or permanent jobs. Those in seasonal or short-term jobs might return to Ireland when they had no work in Britain. Some chose emigration.
Cowban


Offline rathmore

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Re: Mystery: Why g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 and not earlier
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 09 February 19 12:19 GMT (UK) »
What was her name?

Offline NewHudsonRyans

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Re: Mystery: Why g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 and not earlier
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 10 February 19 16:00 GMT (UK) »
Read the section on emigration on Irish Genealogy Toolkit
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com
Genealogy>Emigration
Page 2 about emigration in 19th century. It says there were 3 distinct phases.
1815-1845: 1 million
1846-1855: 2.5 million
1856-1914: 4 million
It's pointed out that these figures are probably an underestimation as it's difficult to ascertain how many left and settled in Britain.
There is a chart, arranged by province and county for the decade 1851-1860. Total for Tipperary for the decade was 80,000. Approx. 32,000 left 1851-3, subsequent years annual numbers were in single-figure thousands.

That's interesting information.  I haven't see these figures before.

But they raise more questions.  For example, emigration from Tipperary decreased sharply between 1857 and 1858, but increased 18% from 1858 to 1859, and by 33% from 1859 to 1860.  I wonder what caused the decrease and subsequent increase.

Offline NewHudsonRyans

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Re: Mystery: Why g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 and not earlier
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 10 February 19 16:04 GMT (UK) »
What was her name?

G-grandfather:  Michael Ryan, born circa 1816.
G-grandmother:  Bridget Lynch, born January 1834.  Her brothers:  Thomas (b. 1832) and Patrick (b. circa 1830), possibly also William and John.  Her father:  Michael Lynch (b. circa 1800).  Mother:  Margaret Butler (b. circa 1800).

Three families Michael Ryan/Bridget Lynch, Thomas Lynch/Margaret Carty, and Patrick Lynch/Elizabeth Keyes, all emigrated to northern Pennsylvania by 1865.

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Mystery: Why g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 and not earlier
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 10 February 19 17:28 GMT (UK) »
Read the section on emigration on Irish Genealogy Toolkit
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com
Genealogy>Emigration
Page 2 about emigration in 19th century. It says there were 3 distinct phases.
 

That's interesting information.  I haven't see these figures before.

But they raise more questions.  For example, emigration from Tipperary decreased sharply between 1857 and 1858, but increased 18% from 1858 to 1859, and by 33% from 1859 to 1860.  I wonder what caused the decrease and subsequent increase.

Looking again at the chart, figures for Tipperary seem to mirror the pattern for the rest of Munster. Each province had its' own pattern.

The page "Irish immigration to America 1846-early 20th century" on Irish Genealogy Toolkit  suggests 2 factors influencing fluctuations, first a downturn of industrial expansion U.S. in mid 1850s and secondly steamships.
"Steamship Competition
After 1855 the tide of Irish immigration levelled off. However the continuing steady numbers encouraged ship builders to construct bigger vessels.  ….. shipowners began to realise economic advantages of specialising in steerage passengers." Conditions onboard improved, fares were often lower than on sailing ships and voyage times reduced to a fortnight. "The concept of Irish immigration to America ….  seemed less permanent."
(My English-born aunt's Irish grandparents went to U.S. for a few years in 1860s, had 2 sons there, one my aunts father, then crossed the Atlantic again and settled in England.)
 Economic conditions in U.S. and steamships were only 2 factors. As Drosybont said in reply #1 you have to think of "push and pull" factors. Emigration/immigration/migration are complex. There are no simple answers. One has to consider: economic conditions and employment opportunities in Ireland, Britain, Canada, U.S.A., Australia; transport (costs, time, convenience); existing Irish communities in the destination countries; politics; religion.
There's plenty written about the subject.
Many Irish newspapers are online and extracts from some are on various websites. These are interesting for contemporary accounts of events. You need to be aware of political bias of some newspapers when reading them.
See also the pages on Irish immigration to Britain on Irish Genealogy Toolkit. Most convenient, quickest and cheapest choice was to work on the British mainland.
Cowban

Offline NewHudsonRyans

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Re: Mystery: Why g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 and not earlier
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 10 February 19 23:32 GMT (UK) »
I've been puzzling over this for years.  My g-grandparents emigrated in 1865 to Pennsylvania.  I know that the famine was felt in Tipperary but that it was essentially over by the end of the 1840s, so their emigration was not compelled by that.

So it's a mystery; was there some event in Tipperary in the mid 1860s that might explain why they left?  I expect they were tenant farmers so it was quite a lifestyle change.

-- Mike
System of tenant farming and landholding changed after the Famine. Until then land had been subdivided between adult sons - hence the dependence on potatoes. Post-Famine, one son took over the land from his father. Other sons had to look elsewhere to make a living. Some managed by working in Britain, in either seasonal or permanent jobs. Those in seasonal or short-term jobs might return to Ireland when they had no work in Britain. Some chose emigration.

This is another mystery.  My g-grandfather was born circa 1816 according to his death certificate, although I know these dates sometimes have only a tenuous relation to the truth.  Anyway if true, he would have been in his late 40s when he emigrated.

I've looked at Griffith's and revision books for the townlands surrounding Cooneen (in Dolla civil parish) up until the late 1800s looking for my g-grandfather and possible siblings.  I really can't find a Ryan family listed with him as the tenant during the period after he married (1859) until they emigrated.  Now it could be that he and his wife were living with one of his or her relatives, but as far as I know that's not possible to tell from extant documentation.

I also cannot find Bridget Lynch's father Michael, who emigrated with them in 1865, anywhere nearby in Griffith's from the 1840s through 1865.