Author Topic: Is it worth applying for service record?  (Read 646 times)

Online Lisajb

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 765
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Is it worth applying for service record?
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 07 February 19 13:25 GMT (UK) »
I'd like to apply for my recently deceased fathers records, but his third wife is still alive, doesn't like me and would never give me permission.

I think that would mean I would not get much detail?

You are second on the list Lisa. You could still go ahead and apply, marking yourself as second next of kin and include a note explaining the situation (maybe omit that she doesn't like you and would not give her permission, but rather say you do not have contact with her if that is true?).
I have no idea if, given the circumstances, they would issue you the full service record. It must be a frustrating situation for you, and a bit unfair that you, as his child, need permission from someone who (for all intents and purposes) you are not related to, to obtain your own father's records.

Alternatively you could do as Sandy did? Maybe you misunderstood the nok requirements?  ;) Maybe you thought your mother, as his spouse, would be nok and she is deceased? (is she?)

Otherwise you could apply as a "General Enquirer" for the reduced info records (which doesn't seem to include much). I could also apply for your father's records under this category if I could get a copy of his d/c.  :-\

My mum is still alive. She was about 12 years younger than my father, the third wife is 16 years younger than him (he does seem to have favoured younger women for wives!)

It has occurred to me to "misread" the form, but I'd be so worried about getting into trouble. It just doesn't seem fair that as his only child I can only have a very basic record.
Mullingar, Westmeath Ireland: Gilligan/Wall/Meagher/Maher/Gray/O'Hara
Bristol: Woodman/James/Derrick
Bristol/Somerset: Saunders/Wilmot
Gloucestershire:Woodman/Mathews/Tandy/Stinchcombe/Marten/Thompson
Wiltshire: Mathews
Carmarthen: Thomas, Davies, Lewis, Humphreys, Williams, Jenkins

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline nanny jan

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,950
  • Russian John
    • View Profile
Re: Is it worth applying for service record?
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 07 February 19 14:26 GMT (UK) »
I applied for the record of my mum's first husband (he died just after WW2); I had tried to find any family but some siblings had died in the Blitz, parents were now dead and could not confirm any others. I explained the situation and got a very full record; think it was about 20 pages or so.
Howard , Viney , Kingsman, Pain/e, Rainer/ Rayner, Barham, George, Wakeling (Catherine), Vicary (Frederick)   all LDN area/suburbs  Ottley/ MDX,
Henman/ KNT   Gandy/LDN before 1830  Burgess/LDN
Barham/SFK   Rainer/CAN (Toronto) Gillians/CAN  Sturgeon/CAN (Vancouver)
Bailey/LDN Page/KNT   Paling/WA (var)



All census look-ups are crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Online IMBER

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,861
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Is it worth applying for service record?
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 07 February 19 18:30 GMT (UK) »
I'd love to see my father's national service record from the late 1940s, but £30 is a bit steep. I think they'd make a lot more money if they made them £10.

Martin

They don’t want to make money, Martin. They just want to get on with their main job of providing a service to the Army and that won’t be helped by increasing the number of requests from family historians etc, hence the £30 charge.

Imber
Skewis (Wales and Scotland), Ayers (Maidenhead, Berkshire), Hildreth (Berkshire)

Online IMBER

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,861
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Is it worth applying for service record?
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 07 February 19 18:45 GMT (UK) »
I'd like to apply for my recently deceased fathers records, but his third wife is still alive, doesn't like me and would never give me permission.

I think that would mean I would not get much detail?

You are second on the list Lisa. You could still go ahead and apply, marking yourself as second next of kin and include a note explaining the situation (maybe omit that she doesn't like you and would not give her permission, but rather say you do not have contact with her if that is true?).
I have no idea if, given the circumstances, they would issue you the full service record. It must be a frustrating situation for you, and a bit unfair that you, as his child, need permission from someone who (for all intents and purposes) you are not related to, to obtain your own father's records.

Alternatively you could do as Sandy did? Maybe you misunderstood the nok requirements?  ;) Maybe you thought your mother, as his spouse, would be nok and she is deceased? (is she?)

Otherwise you could apply as a "General Enquirer" for the reduced info records (which doesn't seem to include much). I could also apply for your father's records under this category if I could get a copy of his d/c.  :-\

My mum is still alive. She was about 12 years younger than my father, the third wife is 16 years younger than him (he does seem to have favoured younger women for wives!)

It has occurred to me to "misread" the form, but I'd be so worried about getting into trouble. It just doesn't seem fair that as his only child I can only have a very basic record.

You should just submit your application but avoid any additional comments. You can prove your close relationship and they seem much more relaxed these days. They are under pressure fulfilling their primary role of supporting today’s Army and there certainly isn't anyone with the time, means  and inclination to sit there and check you out. What sort of “trouble” could you get into? At worst a letter back refusing to provide the records.

Imber
Skewis (Wales and Scotland), Ayers (Maidenhead, Berkshire), Hildreth (Berkshire)

Online Lisajb

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 765
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Is it worth applying for service record?
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 07 February 19 20:02 GMT (UK) »
The form says that it’s an offence to give false information or to knowingly withhold information.

And that’s what I’d be doing - giving myself as NOK, and failing to give details of the actual NOK, his third wife, who is still alive.
Mullingar, Westmeath Ireland: Gilligan/Wall/Meagher/Maher/Gray/O'Hara
Bristol: Woodman/James/Derrick
Bristol/Somerset: Saunders/Wilmot
Gloucestershire:Woodman/Mathews/Tandy/Stinchcombe/Marten/Thompson
Wiltshire: Mathews
Carmarthen: Thomas, Davies, Lewis, Humphreys, Williams, Jenkins

Offline Rosinish

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,266
  • PASSED & PAST (Speciality - South Uist, Inverness)
    • View Profile
Re: Is it worth applying for service record?
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 07 February 19 21:00 GMT (UK) »
Definition of Next-of-Kin

"A person's next of kin is that person's closest living blood relative or relatives"

I think this could be a loose term where the MOD are concerned & haven't changed their wording to include deceased peoples blood kin (although I may be wrong)?

It's a document, not his Army Pension you're trying to claim  :D

Annie

South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie, MacDonald, MacInnes, MacIntyre, MacKinnon, Steele, Walker

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, MacKinnon, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Ruskie

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 22,313
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Is it worth applying for service record?
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 07 February 19 21:20 GMT (UK) »
With your Mum still alive, the situation is even more "odd".  :)
 
Lisa, although you say your step mother doesn’t like you, would it still be worth asking her to sign the form? 

You could fill it out and all she would need to do would be sign her name. With several marriages, I wonder if you would also need proof of divorce, remarriage etc? The plus side is that it if you go down this route it will not cost you anything to get the record.   :-\

If you wish to go ahead and try to obtain the record without your step mother’s input, I would still opt for adding a note - maybe something like “third wife still living”  “lost contact” or “estranged”. That is truthful, and they can only say ‘no’.  :)

It would be a lot more trouble for you to go through his third wife, and if the MOD are going to supply his record to her for free, they are likely to be more careful in checking entitlements I would imagine? Some people might try to deceive to save the £30, so you would expect checks to be made, especially as there are fewer and fewer wives of WW2 servicemen still living and a wife applying for a service record from WW2 might stand out. (This is just guesswork - I have no knowledge of the process)

I feel that their nok list is a bit unfair and children have just as much right to the record as a wife, but there is probably some logic behind that.

The situation is probabaly a little different here (Australia), but I applied for my grandfather’s unclaimed WW2 medals. My aunt, his daughter was officially nok though I had lost contact with her. I included a letter telling them this and the medals were sent to me.

Their list of nok was bizzarre in my opinion - I can’t recall the full list as it was some time ago, but quite remote relatives came before grandchild, such as sons and daughters of his siblings. I had no clue who they might be, and far as I know they would be all dead anyway. Grandchild was quite low on the list. I was quite upset by this at the time because I spent a huge amount of time with my grandfather, and as there was never any mention of nieces and nephews and I am sure he would have been miffed if any of them had applied.

I would say you should still apply for your father’s full service records.  :) Let us know how you get on if you decide to go ahead with it.

Online Lisajb

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 765
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Is it worth applying for service record?
« Reply #16 on: Friday 08 February 19 07:29 GMT (UK) »
His first wife is still alive and living in the USA,
His second wife - my mum - is still alive.
His third wife is still alive - this is the one who wouldn’t give me permission.

I believe my cousins may be in contact with her although not sure how close the relationship is - it may be telling that none of us, self included, found out that my father had died until a few weeks after it had happened, and I only found out through one of my cousins.
Mullingar, Westmeath Ireland: Gilligan/Wall/Meagher/Maher/Gray/O'Hara
Bristol: Woodman/James/Derrick
Bristol/Somerset: Saunders/Wilmot
Gloucestershire:Woodman/Mathews/Tandy/Stinchcombe/Marten/Thompson
Wiltshire: Mathews
Carmarthen: Thomas, Davies, Lewis, Humphreys, Williams, Jenkins

Offline Ruskie

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 22,313
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Is it worth applying for service record?
« Reply #17 on: Friday 08 February 19 11:09 GMT (UK) »
That is awful Lisa.  :(

If I were you I would be honest and list his wives and their whereabouts (maybe date of divorce if known) and for the current one - just write "unknown" "lost contact" or "estranged". Keep it short and sweet. Then it is their decision whether or not they let you have his service records.

Do you have a copy of his d/c?