McClures in Kenmare, Co Kerry

[hallmark]

Your kin got up to all sorts!   

[shanreagh]

I am still a bit confused.  I have had relations where the parents  were not married at the time of christening (COI) and/or civil registration. All of them have been registered under the father's name whether or not they were married.  They may have been cohabiting.  Some of them never got married, the child was brought up by the mother. 

I am aware that where single mothers gave birth and the father was not named (NR) on the certificate the child took the mother's name. Often the mother would make the father's name as a second name.

But in this case you are saying that people on the register did not actually exist ie there was never a John McClure or a Catherine Mara who cohabited and had two daughters.  Or
Are you saying there was a Catherine Mara and a John McClure who did not marry and therefore you are surprised that the births were registered in father's name and not the mother's?
Whose last names are incorrect? What would you have expected the girls surname to be.

Which of Sara or Frances was your great grandmother? Or was Catherine XXXX your gt grandmother

Did Catherine Y or John X ever marry, if not to each then to others?

I can see a marriage in St Peters Dublin COI in 1864 of a John McClure of Kenmare, Parish of Kenmare Co Kerry to Sebilla Ellen Ferguson. John gives his occupation as land steward and his father's name is James McClure a farmer.


Looking for Catherine McClure there is a dob of 18/11/1844 Tralee. Does this date fit with her death date? If she is the Catherine McClure then she would have been 14 in August 1859. Her parents are shown as John McClure and Ellen Leary

I am still searching.  If the father was out of the picture then it would be likely that the girls would have been known by their mother's name if a Mara. 

I think the young couple went along with sponsors to baptise their children even though they were not married.  There would have been no reason to hide this and they may have wanted to do the right thing. 

I note that the baptism immediately above is also baptised  under the fathers name even though the child is illegitimate see Maria Connor with father John Connors and Maria Burns.

[shanreagh]

Looking for Catherine McClure there is a dob of 18/11/1844 Tralee. Does this date fit with her death date? If she is the Catherine McClure then she would have been 14 in August 1859. Her parents are shown as John McClure and Ellen Leary

The McClure/Leary marriage took place in Tralee on 4/2/1837. They had other children as well as the Catherine McClure above in 1844
Thomas McClure 8/5/1840
Mary McClure 23/8/1847 and interestingly one of the sponsors is a Mary O'Meara
Mary McClure 21/7/1842
Ellen McClure 12/2/1838


Here are some Mara entries
Catherine Mara bapt Kenmare Co Kerry on 21/4/1820 daughter of Morgan Mara and Ellen Connor
This one would have been 39 in 1859. It is well known that older birth mothers have a greater chance of giving bith to twins.

Catherine Mara bapt Kilcummin 30/4/1834 so 25 in 1859. parents Cornelius mara and mary Leyne

There are many

Here is the reference again

https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/

[ladybird]

I'm sorry I don't seem to be explaining myself very well.
John Mara and Catherine McClure had illegitimate twin daughters, Sara and Francesca, born 1859.
Those daughters married, and the son of Sara Mara and the daughter of Francesca married (yes 1st cousins) hence Sara and Francesca are both my g/grandmothers

I have never found a marriage for either John Mara or Catherine McClure to each other or someone else

The Priest I had contact with found a possible death for Catherine under the name of Mara

Death registered in the District of Kenmare ...in the County of Kerry
#203 26th Aug 1910, Kenmare Workhouse
Kate Mara, Templenoe, spinster(? - my note) aged 86 years (1824), servant, Senile decay
Informant John J. O'Sullivan, Kenmare Workhouse
Registered 8th Sept 1910, Registrar J Horgan.

A thought has just struck me that although the girls were baptized Catholic they were brought up Protestant. Would that possibly have made a difference as to whether John Mara and Catherine McClure were actually allowed to marry?

Oh dear!! 

[shanreagh]

These two entries could be connected:

Birth 1820
Catherine Mara bapt Kenmare Co Kerry on 21/4/1820 daughter of Morgan Mara and Ellen Connor
This one would have been 39 in 1859. It is well known that older birth mothers have a greater chance of giving bith to twins.
Death 1910 at age 86
Death registered in the District of Kenmare ...in the County of Kerry
#203 26th Aug 1910, Kenmare Workhouse
Kate Mara, Templenoe, spinster(? - my note) aged 86 years (1824), servant, Senile decay
Informant John J. O'Sullivan, Kenmare Workhouse
Registered 8th Sept 1910, Registrar J Horgan.

[ladybird]

 
Thanks Shanreagh, then the death notice is probably not my Kate (McClure) drats!
Back to the drawing board.

[shanreagh]

Are you  saying she was known as Kate?
I mentioned this one before

Name   CATHERINE MCCLURE
Date of Birth   18 November 1844 (BASED ON OTHER DATE INFORMATION)
Address   TRALEE
Father   JOHN MCCLURE
Mother   ELLEN LEARY

Possibly worth following up through births of other children to parents/marriage/burials

A few posts back Hallmark asked what evidence you had to support the view that the Parish register was wrong.  As far as I can see you have not responded to this. 

Do you have evidence say in the form of other certificates? What do the children say in their own marriage certificates?
Did Catherine XXXX have any other children?
Where did she live?
Where were her twins brought up?
Where did the twins marry/live/die?
Where is it likely that  Catherine died? Ie did she emigrate? Move around Ireland?

Did you say your grandmother/mother could remember Catherine? Does this mean at the time of their birth/childhood she was still alive ...this could help narrow down a death date. 

[ladybird]

Are you  saying she was known as Kate? This is a common nickname for Catherine
I mentioned this one before

Name   CATHERINE MCCLURE
Date of Birth   18 November 1844 (BASED ON OTHER DATE INFORMATION)
Address   TRALEE
Father   JOHN MCCLURE
Mother   ELLEN LEARY
This would make Catherine 15 at time of the birth of the twins, not impossible I know. Will bear this in mind
Possibly worth following up through births of other children to parents/marriage/burials That's the problem, I can find no other records

A few posts back Hallmark asked what evidence you had to support the view that the Parish register was wrong.  As far as I can see you have not responded to this.  Maybe the priest was A/ being kind. B/ only going by the names given to him. C/ This is definitely the right record

Do you have evidence say in the form of other certificates? What do the children say in their own marriage certificates? Father John Mara, mother Catherine McClure
Did Catherine XXXX have any other children? Don't know
Where did she live? Don't know
Where were her twins brought up? They moved to Glasgow when old enough for work (ladies maids), married and died there
Where did the twins marry/live/die?
Where is it likely that  Catherine died? Ie did she emigrate? Move around Ireland? I do not know what happened to Catherine after the birth of the twins. Pretty sure she did not emigrate.

Did you say your grandmother/mother could remember Catherine? Does this mean at the time of their birth/childhood she was still alive ...this could help narrow down a death date. My mother died a long time ago and I can only go on stories she told me about her grandmothers (the twins) I don't think she knew anything about Catherine

[shanreagh]

Thanks I will try to find some more records for the McClure Leary marriage. 

Name   CATHERINE MCCLURE
Date of Birth   18 November 1844 (BASED ON OTHER DATE INFORMATION)
Address   TRALEE
Father   JOHN MCCLURE
Mother   ELLEN LEARY
Have you found any for John Mara that look promising?

Apart from a possible relgious difference, often not insurmountable,  if the mother was very young then the lack of parental consent may be a reason for not marrying.