Author Topic: Advice on claim to Irish Peerage  (Read 2205 times)

Online Ruskie

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Advice on claim to Irish Peerage
« on: Monday 18 February 19 23:37 GMT (UK) »
I hope someone can give me some advice and guidance regarding the application process for a (possible) claim to an Irish peerage. Does anyone have any personal experience of this?

I find this a complex subject and know nothing apart from what I have found via google in the past day or two. I would also be grateful for any help interpreting the information on this link:

https://www.debretts.com/expertise/essential-guide-to-the-peerage/claims-to-peerage/

The website seems to be skewed more towards English peerages though it also mentions Irish peerages (almost as an aside).

The Debretts link says you need to apply to the Lord Chancellor to be entered on the Roll. It says the application and supporting evidence is presented under the direction of the Lord Chancellor which is a bit vague.

It also says that anyone claiming a peerage should apply to the Lord Chancellor. It then says the registrar of the Roll of the Peerage is Ian Denyer who is the head of the Crown Office at the House of Lords. Is that the same thing or does he have a number of roles or does Ian Denyer pass all this on to the Lord Chancellor? I read this as indicating that Ian Denyer the person to contact in the first instance. Is this correct?

General questions about peerages:

If several people have claims do they all need to apply before being considered? It seems that anyone who may be entitled is not automatically contacted and offered the role?

Are there any duties or responsibilities or is the title in name only? (or does it depend which peerage?)  :-\

Does the closest relative to the current peer take precedence over a closer relative to the "original" peer, in this case, from the 1600s. For example, the current peer is a very distant relative of the previous peer, but there may have been closer living relatives who either did not know they had any entitlement, or did not apply for the peerage upon the death of the previous peer. (sorry, that sounds very complicated)  :(

The peerage in question has an "heir presumptive" according to Wikipedia, :-\  though it also says there are other distant cousins, which presumably also may have a claim to the title. Does an "heir presumptive" mean this person is already confirmed as next in line? (in which case it would be a waste of time applying) Would Ian Denyer tell me this if I enquired about this peerage? Or do you think he would consider other applicants to the title?

Do applications for the next peer need to be in place prior to the death of the current peer?

Do any applicants take priority over others, eg those living in a different country are less likely to gain the title?

Apologies for the huge thread, and for asking so many questions, but thank you for any assistance with this.  :)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Advice on claim to Irish Peerage
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 19 February 19 00:39 GMT (UK) »
Heir presumptive - an heir who expects to inherit but whose claim may be set aside by the birth of another heir.
The present Queen Elizabeth was heir presumptive to the throne when she was Princess Elizabeth. She would have been demoted by the birth of a brother. Prince Charles is heir apparent - no one can leapfrog him.
Cowban

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Re: Advice on claim to Irish Peerage
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 19 February 19 02:49 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the reply Maiden Stone.

That makes sense.

More questions I'm afraid .... In my example do you know if the heir presumptive to a peerage could be set aside by the claim of another possible heir? (not a new birth, but another, or a closer heir genealogically speaking)

Importantly, and something I should have mentioned in my original post, the current holder of this title appears to be unmarried and childless, so the title will therefore have to pass to another branch of the family. Wiki says that the heir presumptive is a "distant cousin" and also says that "there are other distant cousins". :-\

Also as the person is said by Wikipedia (accuracy unknown) to be the heir presumptive, does that mean he has (for want of a better phrase) already applied for the job and been accepted?

The peerage used to pass only to males. Is this still the case? I recall that the first baby born to William and Kate Middleton would be the next in line to the throne no matter what sex s/he was? Does that filter onto other hereditary titles?


Offline KGarrad

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Re: Advice on claim to Irish Peerage
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 19 February 19 07:02 GMT (UK) »
The Wikipedia page on the Peerage of Ireland states:

The Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland continues to exercise jurisdiction over the Peerage of Ireland, including those peers whose titles derive from places located in what is now the Republic of Ireland. Article 40.2 of the Irish Constitution forbids the state conferring titles of nobility and a citizen may not accept titles of nobility or honour except with the prior approval of the Government. As stated above, this issue does not arise in respect of the Peerage of Ireland, as no creations of titles in it have been made since the Constitution came into force.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Skoosh

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Re: Advice on claim to Irish Peerage
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 19 February 19 08:22 GMT (UK) »
Ruskie, it would depend on the patent granted with a peerage, some must go to the male heir others, for example, may go to a female, as in the old Scottish earldoms.
 Oscar Wilde said that "Burke's Peerage!" was the greatest work of fiction in the English language! ;D

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Re: Advice on claim to Irish Peerage
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 19 February 19 09:09 GMT (UK) »
Thank you KGarrad - I think I need to try to digest this information then will return with yet more questions. The peerage I am enquiring about relates to a place in “Northern Ireland”

Thank you too Skoosh. From what I can see this peerage is passed through the male line. At least it did when the previous peer died in the 1980s. He had daughters, and the peerage was passed to a distant male relative. Whether that is still the case today, I have no idea.

As this relates to living people obviously I am unable to mention any names, nor do I want to give too much information on a public forum as it is not my family. I am willing to do so via PM, if anyone is interested or can give further guidance. I think all I really need to know is, is it worth persuing this?

As an aside, I believe I have located the “heir presumptive” - he lives in the same (overeseas) city as the possible claimant I am attempting to assist, so it seems he might be descended through the same branch of the family.

Offline AntonyMMM

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Re: Advice on claim to Irish Peerage
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 19 February 19 09:22 GMT (UK) »
The College of Arms would be the place to start. They have a very helpful guide on the process and the documentary evidence required.

https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/peers-roll-proof

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Re: Advice on claim to Irish Peerage
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 19 February 19 11:39 GMT (UK) »
The College of Arms would be the place to start. They have a very helpful guide on the process and the documentary evidence required.

https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/peers-roll-proof

Thanks Antony. I have nothing to lose by giving it a try.  :)

Offline andrewalston

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Re: Advice on claim to Irish Peerage
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 19 February 19 15:52 GMT (UK) »
Don't forget that the title could have been transferred in a will somewhere along the line.

I have someone in the fringes of my tree who inherited an estate (only Lord of the Manor as a title though) from someone without obvious heirs in the 1830s, provided that they changed their name.

The change of name was duly reported in the London Gazette.  :)
Looking at ALSTON in south Ribble area, ALSTEAD and DONBAVAND/DUNBABIN etc. everywhere, HOWCROFT and MARSH in Bolton and Westhoughton, PICKERING in the Whitehaven area.

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