Author Topic: Help from better searchers than I please!  (Read 1894 times)

Offline Horsley2016

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Help from better searchers than I please!
« on: Wednesday 20 February 19 14:29 GMT (UK) »
Hi there,

I wonder if anyone is free and able to try to help me track down the baptism records of my Gt GM please?

Her name was Alice Brown. She was born at 46 Bostock Street, Bootle, Liverpool on 08 April 1889. Her parents were James Brown and Mary Brown nee Frederickson (1st husband) or Morris (maiden name.) The Frederickson name comes with variations depending on who scribed! I've seen it as Fredrickson and Fredericksen etc etc.

As far as I know they were CoE

2 years after she was born the family were in a court off Buck Street, Liverpool.

Alice had siblings:
James (1877)
Laura (1879)
Charlotte (1882)
Margaret (1884)
William (1896)

and what's frustrating is I can't find a baptism for any of those to give me a clue either!!!!   ???

If anyone can track down a baptism entry it would be so much appreciated.
Thank you.
M

Offline avm228

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Re: Help from better searchers than I please!
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 20 February 19 15:01 GMT (UK) »
I can't easily see any relevant baptisms either - but that could be because the children weren't baptised, or because the relevant baptisms are not online.

The family lived in very poor circumstances - in a cellar in 1881: RG11/3597/49/33.  Perhaps baptism was not a priority.

Were James and Mary lawfully married to one another? Edit: I see that they were - Dec qtr 1876 W Derby.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline Horsley2016

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Re: Help from better searchers than I please!
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 20 February 19 15:12 GMT (UK) »
Hi avm, thanks.

Yes, they were married 28 Nov 1876 at St Georges, Everton, Liverpool. I wondered if baptism wasn't a priority either but then, wouldn't that have been really unusual back then in 1889? It's interesting that I can't find any of them though!

Who knows?!  and I know my Gt GM Alice went on to have 2 children out of wedlock  :o before marrying (twice) and both times at CoE Churches...

M

Offline avm228

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Re: Help from better searchers than I please!
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 20 February 19 15:25 GMT (UK) »
I don't think it would have been all that unusual not to be baptised in infancy (or at all).  Sometimes one sees a family baptising several children of different ages all at once (perhaps prompted by the vicar or some other external motivation?) but not all families would have been churchgoers.  Is there specific information you were hoping to find on a baptism record, or is it more a matter of curiosity?
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)


Offline Horsley2016

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Re: Help from better searchers than I please!
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 20 February 19 15:40 GMT (UK) »
Interest, but in the short term, I'm trying in desperation, anything that may give me a clue as to Alice's Mother's birth date (and therefore her MMN) and/or death.

I've a horrible feeling my research to date has gone wrong in a big way! What I DO know is she married Anton Frederickson 9 June 1871 at St Matthew, Liverpool (CoE) She's a 'Minor' here so assume the DOB has to be after 1850. Her Father seems to be living and is listed as a "Joiner."

She is widowed in 1873

She remarries in 1876 (as per previously stated) at St Georges, Everton Liverpool and, by this time, her Father is a "deceased Joiner."

I'm struggling from then on in! I can track the Censuses after her 2nd marriage and see addresses from birth certificates etc but I cannot find her and/or her Father on the 1871 Census or beforehand. There are SO many Mary/ Mary Ann Morrises!!  :'(

I made an assumption on an 1861 Census of them living in 70 Eldon Street. Certainly, the apple never seems to fall far from the tree. I also then made a connection to a possible brother born 1844 - Thomas Morris. But this all got horrible merged and confused and he ended up as Thomas William Morris (married Laura Cunningham in 1865.) I only made that connection on basis or area and Fathers occupation. This Census would give us a Mother name of 'Mary.' I then hoped to find evidence of a marriage between a Thomas Morris Joiner and a Mary... and hit a brick wall that way too!

I then thought I had cracked it with a Thomas and Mary Ann born to MMN Kelly (St Joseph's RC has baptism records) But this would mean they were Catholic and all of Mary Ann's life seems to be CoE.  ???   This has made me SO confused!!!!!

Bet you're sorry you asked now!  ;)

M

Offline avm228

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Re: Help from better searchers than I please!
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 20 February 19 15:44 GMT (UK) »
Ok then!

The fact that her father isn't noted as deceased on the 1871 marriage doesn't necessarily mean he was alive.  It might just mean the information wasn't asked for, volunteered or recorded.

Have you traced the witnesses to the 1871 marriage - Samuel Dab? and Esther Wilson?

Or the witnesses to the 1876 marriage: E.G. Ayers & Ann Ayers?
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline Horsley2016

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Re: Help from better searchers than I please!
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 20 February 19 15:49 GMT (UK) »
I was hoping that she would have put down if her Father was dead by the time she married first!!  ;D I know though, this wasn't always the case....

I read Samuel Dab as Dale and no, I hadn't thought of that. That's an interesting point! I guess most witnesses then would have been family or neighbours?

Both Anton and Mary Ann were in Boundary Street for their marriage. When she married James, she was in Corless Street (16) and her witnesses then were E G Ayers and Ann Ayers....

Although I really like Ancestry for recording my tree, I struggle so much with their search facilities. I was considering trying findmypast as it seems much more clearer to search for people through the Census and offers access to education records etc?

Offline avm228

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Re: Help from better searchers than I please!
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 20 February 19 15:50 GMT (UK) »
She is aged 24 at remarriage on 28.11.1876 - if right that means she was born between 29.11.1851 and 28.11.1852.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline avm228

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Re: Help from better searchers than I please!
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 20 February 19 15:54 GMT (UK) »
From the censuses:

1881: Mary Brown, 28 b Liverpool RG11/3597/49/33
1891: Mary Brown, 35 b Liverpool RG12/2912/66/25
1901: Mary A Brown, 50 b Liverpool RG13/3408/158/63
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)