Author Topic: 1809-1814 king's own (royal lancaster regiment) - 4th foot  (Read 318 times)

Offline emjsw

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: 1809-1814 king's own (royal lancaster regiment) - 4th foot
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 26 February 19 10:27 GMT (UK) »
Didn't officers generally need to have some money behind them to buy a commission?
A corporal was a private who had been promoted.

That is what I thought re officers (but I wasn't sure if a corporal was an officer), I can't find any evidence to suggest the family was very well off so couldn't work out how he might have afforded it unless he was promoted through the ranks???
Thanks for getting in touch.
Sweetland (Chard/Yarcoombe/Honiton)
Garret/Stacey (Somerset)
Boultern/Boulton (Reading)
Crowther (Wolverhampton/Wednesbury/Birmingham)
Myres (Wolverhampton)
Palmer (Nottingham)
Cosby (Leighton Buzzard/Woodstock/Kidlington)
Hope (Oxford/Kidlington/Woodstock)
Williams (Yorkshire/Conisborough)
Draper (Bow Brickhill)
Draper Smith (Bow Brickhill/Woburn Sands)
Smith (Woburn Sands)

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline MaxD

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,682
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: 1809-1814 king's own (royal lancaster regiment) - 4th foot
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 26 February 19 10:42 GMT (UK) »
Slow down, Maiden Stone didn't mean your man was an officer. His service in each rank he held is on the service record you have looked at, 1 year 7 months as a private soldier then 11 months as a corporal then 2 years 11 months as a sergeant.  The record is annotated corporal and transcribed as such but that looks like an error.

MaxD
Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline emjsw

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: 1809-1814 king's own (royal lancaster regiment) - 4th foot
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 26 February 19 10:54 GMT (UK) »
Had you picked up his occasional appearance in pension records which show he drew the sum of 9d a day from when he was discharged on 1 Sep 1814 to when he died on 19 March 1857. He also appears on the Peninsular Medal roll having qualified for clasps indicating the engagements he fought in viz Salamanca, Vittoria, St Sebastian and Nivelle and that he had served almost 3 years of his time as a sergeant.

MaxD

Thank you for that, I had definitely not worked out about the clasps and it is great to learn where he served as I had only picked up on where he had lost his leg. The specific dates are really handy too. I didn't realise that was his pension per day, I thought that was a one off payment on discharge. Thank you so much for sharing this information as I wouldn't have had a clue and would have missed all of these facts. When he came back aged 33 he married Mary Dowland as a widow so I wondered if he had got married and his wife was with him at the Peninsular and had died out there.
Do you know if it usual for men to be promoted as quickly as he was over a short period of time or do you think he might have brought his commission please (or maybe he was an NCO)?
Thanks a million for your help (and knowledge on the subject).
Best wishes,
Emma
Sweetland (Chard/Yarcoombe/Honiton)
Garret/Stacey (Somerset)
Boultern/Boulton (Reading)
Crowther (Wolverhampton/Wednesbury/Birmingham)
Myres (Wolverhampton)
Palmer (Nottingham)
Cosby (Leighton Buzzard/Woodstock/Kidlington)
Hope (Oxford/Kidlington/Woodstock)
Williams (Yorkshire/Conisborough)
Draper (Bow Brickhill)
Draper Smith (Bow Brickhill/Woburn Sands)
Smith (Woburn Sands)

Offline emjsw

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: 1809-1814 king's own (royal lancaster regiment) - 4th foot
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 26 February 19 10:59 GMT (UK) »
Slow down, Maiden Stone didn't mean your man was an officer. His service in each rank he held is on the service record you have looked at, 1 year 7 months as a private soldier then 11 months as a corporal then 2 years 11 months as a sergeant.  The record is annotated corporal and transcribed as such but that looks like an error.

MaxD

Ahh I see, thank you. This is where my military knowledge is seriously lacking!! I didn't know whether officer was a general term covering all stations (corporal, sergeant, major etc) above private or not. This and the difference between regiments, brigades, divisions etc is a very steep learning curve!!! Thanks for clarifying his position.
Sweetland (Chard/Yarcoombe/Honiton)
Garret/Stacey (Somerset)
Boultern/Boulton (Reading)
Crowther (Wolverhampton/Wednesbury/Birmingham)
Myres (Wolverhampton)
Palmer (Nottingham)
Cosby (Leighton Buzzard/Woodstock/Kidlington)
Hope (Oxford/Kidlington/Woodstock)
Williams (Yorkshire/Conisborough)
Draper (Bow Brickhill)
Draper Smith (Bow Brickhill/Woburn Sands)
Smith (Woburn Sands)

Offline Maiden Stone

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,539
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: 1809-1814 king's own (royal lancaster regiment) - 4th foot
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 26 February 19 15:25 GMT (UK) »
Ahh I see, thank you. This is where my military knowledge is seriously lacking!! I didn't know whether officer was a general term covering all stations (corporal, sergeant, major etc) above private or not. This and the difference between regiments, brigades, divisions etc is a very steep learning curve!!! Thanks for clarifying his position.
NCO= Non-Commissioned Officer. Corporals and sergeants were NCOs.
Sharpe was promoted from sergeant to lieutenant because he saved Wellington's life. He wasn't typical of his real life counterparts.
Commissioned officers were generally drawn from aristocracy, gentry and other strata of society who had money and influence and were accustomed to command ( ordering their minions around in civilian life). The army was a popular career for younger sons of nobility.

Offline MaxD

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,682
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: 1809-1814 king's own (royal lancaster regiment) - 4th foot
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 26 February 19 16:29 GMT (UK) »
And, given my background I need just to add that back in the day, artillery and engineer officers were not able to purchase their commissions, they were trained from 1741 at the Royal Military Academy Woolwich and earned their advancements by merit.


MaxD
Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline Maiden Stone

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,539
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: 1809-1814 king's own (royal lancaster regiment) - 4th foot
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 26 February 19 23:56 GMT (UK) »
When he came back aged 33 he married Mary Dowland as a widow so I wondered if he had got married and his wife was with him at the Peninsular and had died out there.
Do you know if it usual for men to be promoted as quickly as he was over a short period of time or do you think he might have brought his commission please (or maybe he was an NCO)?
Serving soldiers were supposed to obtain permission to marry.
His quick promotions would have been partly due to the war with France. It lasted about 20 years. then there were all the sideshows - prolonged unrest in Ireland culminating in rebellions and invasion by a French force 1798; 1812 War with America which was on side of French; garrisons around the world.

Offline emjsw

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: 1809-1814 king's own (royal lancaster regiment) - 4th foot
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 27 February 19 21:31 GMT (UK) »
When he came back aged 33 he married Mary Dowland as a widow so I wondered if he had got married and his wife was with him at the Peninsular and had died out there.
Do you know if it usual for men to be promoted as quickly as he was over a short period of time or do you think he might have brought his commission please (or maybe he was an NCO)?
Serving soldiers were supposed to obtain permission to marry.
His quick promotions would have been partly due to the war with France. It lasted about 20 years. then there were all the sideshows - prolonged unrest in Ireland culminating in rebellions and invasion by a French force 1798; 1812 War with America which was on side of French; garrisons around the world.

Ahh I see. If his full service record still existed, if he married it might be recorded there. For my relatives that served in other wars they had attestation papers and service records which were really handy but I don't know if they had them in the Napolionic wars. Thank you for explaining why he rose through the ranks so quickly and for telling me about what else was happening in the world at this time.
Best wishes Emma
Sweetland (Chard/Yarcoombe/Honiton)
Garret/Stacey (Somerset)
Boultern/Boulton (Reading)
Crowther (Wolverhampton/Wednesbury/Birmingham)
Myres (Wolverhampton)
Palmer (Nottingham)
Cosby (Leighton Buzzard/Woodstock/Kidlington)
Hope (Oxford/Kidlington/Woodstock)
Williams (Yorkshire/Conisborough)
Draper (Bow Brickhill)
Draper Smith (Bow Brickhill/Woburn Sands)
Smith (Woburn Sands)

Offline emjsw

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: 1809-1814 king's own (royal lancaster regiment) - 4th foot
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 27 February 19 21:41 GMT (UK) »
Ahh I see, thank you. This is where my military knowledge is seriously lacking!! I didn't know whether officer was a general term covering all stations (corporal, sergeant, major etc) above private or not. This and the difference between regiments, brigades, divisions etc is a very steep learning curve!!! Thanks for clarifying his position.
NCO= Non-Commissioned Officer. Corporals and sergeants were NCOs.
Sharpe was promoted from sergeant to lieutenant because he saved Wellington's life. He wasn't typical of his real life counterparts.
Commissioned officers were generally drawn from aristocracy, gentry and other strata of society who had money and influence and were accustomed to command ( ordering their minions around in civilian life). The army was a popular career for younger sons of nobility.

Thank you for explaining, this is much clearer in my mind now. There is no aristocracy in my family tree so I wouldn't find commissioned officers anywhere!! I am surprised by how many members of my family served and feel very proud of the fact. The earliest record I have is of Thomas Sweetland who served in the East Devon militia 1778 (East Devon militia - muster 1 & 2, no. Muster 3 yes. Company Lt Col Kelly. WO13/480 (Pro Kew) musters of the Devon East Militia 1781-1782). He was moved on from Dalwood to avoid paying the family poor relief and he joined up. I am not sure what the militia did but this is my next mission after I have finished learning about this relative (still have season 5 of Sharpe to watch!!).
Thank you for your help and for teaching me about the army at this time.
Best wishes Em
Sweetland (Chard/Yarcoombe/Honiton)
Garret/Stacey (Somerset)
Boultern/Boulton (Reading)
Crowther (Wolverhampton/Wednesbury/Birmingham)
Myres (Wolverhampton)
Palmer (Nottingham)
Cosby (Leighton Buzzard/Woodstock/Kidlington)
Hope (Oxford/Kidlington/Woodstock)
Williams (Yorkshire/Conisborough)
Draper (Bow Brickhill)
Draper Smith (Bow Brickhill/Woburn Sands)
Smith (Woburn Sands)