Author Topic: Cornmiller in Ireland  (Read 529 times)

Offline Annette128

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Cornmiller in Ireland
« on: Thursday 07 March 19 15:00 GMT (UK) »
Would a cornmller be known as a traveller  I have these two descriptions one on a death cert in England for the widow and an obituary.  19 century  the traveller comes on a marriage document for the son. Thanks

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Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Cornmiller in Ireland
« Reply #1 on: Friday 08 March 19 14:18 GMT (UK) »
in the Ireland 1901 census there are 2839 entries for known surnames whose occupation was classed as Corn Miller  [twowords]
in the Ireland 1911 census there are 2373 entries for known surnames whose occupation was classed as Corn Miller  [twowords]
see http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

however unlike your English experiences ther are just very minor part survivals of Irelands census history before 1901 t its commencement  in 1821. there are substitutes eg
Griffiths valuation four sources 1. https://www.failteromhat.com for quick index.   2. http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/ for detail and map ref ..  3. https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/information-and-services/search-archives-online/valuation-revision-books since 1863. 4 the same at national Archives Dublin for tippe
   

if he the son travelled to sell his fathers corn or flour, he is more than likely to be identified sinply as a [commercial ] traveller.
why donít you allow us to help identify your two individuals further in Ireland records if you want further help it does depend on the time period and surviving records
good luck anyway
Gracey Gracie Gracy Grassy Greacy
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Offline Annette128

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Re: Corn miller in Ireland
« Reply #2 on: Friday 08 March 19 19:15 GMT (UK) »
Hi thanks for your reply. Just trying to pick out the bits of info from my tree, my maternal side,

One census in 1861 for Charles put his place of birth as Sligo Ireland.  Not found 1851 at all, 1871, 1881 just state Ireland

First marriage of Charles McKay to Ellen Flinn put down as Mackey in 1853 St Johns RC Chapel Rochdale his father is noted as James MacKey(deceased) a Miller.

Second marriage of Charles McKay in 1871 Manchester Cathedral to Mary Farran or Mellor father is noted as James McKay a Corn Miller but not as deceased.

I think I found two other brothers,
for Charles no baptism found circa 1829 Ireland.

John son of James and Winifred at Boyle, Roscommon in 1825 this is the nearest I can find to Sligo just over the borders,

William no baptism found he marries in Preston to Bridget Murphy nee Slyman (she is from Kilteeven or Gallen Co. Mayo) on this marriage entry the father James is noted as "traveller"

the Griffiths Valuation in 1852 for Lissagadda Lorrha Co. Tipperary with Winifred McKay listed probably the widow of James McKay

Winifred McKay is over in Lancashire by 1861 as a hawker living with Margaret Madden in the town, 1871 with Charles and family and she died in 1880 and from the newspaper obituary it stated widow of James McKay a Corn Miller.

By 1871 the John McKay aged 40 is with Charles and family in the town but I never found where he went to whether abroad or elsewhere..

The other brother William McKay came to the town as well.

Never found a marriage for James and Winifred McKay either Scotland or Ireland...

So I was thinking if James was a corn miller, would it be a proper mill, or would he be a farmer, if someone can give me some more insight that would be great thank you for taking the time to read this query!
 

Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Cornmiller in Ireland
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 09 March 19 22:10 GMT (UK) »
You have worked very hard to acguire your information. I cheekly relaid out your info into a draft tree to be able to query and hopefully insert new bits things only to find confirmations of what you had found. I find I donít understand the reason of McKay unusual movements in Ireland. You donít move the mill you have built etc

James MacKey (deceased) a Miller later a Corn Miller  m ? Winifred? census1871 Winifred McKay b1790 ireland lodger with Charles in  England 1881.  the Griffiths Valuation in 1852 for Lissagadda Lorrha Co. Tipperary with Winifred McKay listed probably the widow of James McKay.  Winifred McKay is over in Lancashire by 1861 as a hawker living with Margaret Madden in the town, 1871 with Charles and family and she died in 1880 and from the newspaper obituary it stated widow of James McKay a Corn Miller.

children in particular order and at this stage could include speculations
1. John a brother to Charles McKay/ MacKey ak to Annette128
 John son of James and Winifred [who is Winfred?] b  at Boyle, Roscommon in 1825 [does this mean birth] this is the nearest I can find to Sligo just over the borders,

2. William? a brother to Charles McKay/ MacKey ak to Annette128í William no baptism found he marries in Preston to Bridget Murphy nee Slyman (she is from Kilteeven or Gallen Co. Mayo) on this marriage entry the father James is noted as "traveller"  when does he come to the town

3. Charles McKay/ MacKey b c1829 Sligo [where does it say SligoIreland.  Not found 1851 at all, 1871, 1881 just state Ireland census 1871 gives 1830.   Genes Reunited gives four possibilities
Charles   McKay   1831   Limerick, Ireland ...   No   Nicholas treeholder   
Charles   McKay   1830   Sligo Ireland ...   No   Lynne treeholder   This lynne has John b 1831 and anotherMckay
Charles   McKay   1830   Lisnaent Ireland ...   No   Leonard treeholder   1861 census gives at ref 107 in handwritten version a Charles McKay  aged 30 m Margrett with Ann and Joseph aged 5and 1 occupation Marine something   b Ireland Lisnabut, lisnacut, lisnaout,lisnarut      Address Leachall St Lancashire address but the family doesnít match 
Charles   McKay   1829   Sligo Ireland ...   No   David treeholder

m1. 1853 St Johns RC Chapel Rochdale Ellen Flinn put down as Mackey his father is noted as James MacKey(deceased) a Miller.
residences

1871 Union Street Rochdale [Wardleworth parish
children from 1871 census
3.1. John F McKay b 1858 Lancashire m Mary had family james W 1877 howard st rochdale
3.2. Martin McKay b 1860 Lancashire lodger in Castleton Rochdale1881 warehouseman cotton
3.3. Margaret McKay b 1862 Lancashire
3.4. Charles McKay b 1864 Lancashire didnít find Charles in 1881
1871 census shows lodgers Winifred McKay above and John McKay b1831 but doesnít say brother

m2. 1871 Manchester cathedral Mary Farran or Mellor [ census 91 gives b1843 Cheshire   father is noted as James McKay a Corn Miller but not as deceased.
Census 1891 Marys the widow house  Cronkeyshaw Road Rochdale [Wardleworth parish
3.5. Winifred McKay b 1876
3.6. Alfred McKay  b1878
3.7. Harry McKay b 1881
3.8. Ellen McKay b 1883
 ďSo I was thinking if James was a corn miller, would it be a proper mill, or would he be a farmer, if someone can give me some more insight that would be great thank you for taking the time to read this query!Ē
In my farming family 1820-1830, the mill was marked as a separate structure on the 1st OS map of that time, but by OS 1st revision 1860 it had become a disused building and shown. However in all my FH searches I have never come across a person selling the product of such an irish mill in England.  Most of McKays settled around Rochdale and worked in the cotton industry. there was a cotton industry in Ireland that struggled unsuccessfully against the machinery introduced around these very times. if the McKay mill had been a small cotton mill they would have needed the market to sell their product and so might have had  travellers. later the linen industry was headed by sales anyway across all waters. Anyway i hope others join in your search
Gracey Gracie Gracy Grassy Greacy
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Cornmiller in Ireland
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 10 March 19 00:04 GMT (UK) »
A few random thoughts. One of my English lines were millers in 19th C in Preston. Their father was innkeeper of a successful coaching-inn and lived in retirement in Preston as a "gentleman"; one  grandfather was a yeoman farmer; step-grandfather had been a maltster. The family had capital to invest.  There were 5 brothers. Brothers no. 1 & no. 3 were in business as young men in 1820s. They dissolved the partnership and did other things. Their youngest brother, my direct ancestor had a different occupation on every record in his long life. It was miller on his son's wedding certificate. I think he would have been an employee at a corn mill, rather than running his own business like his brothers.
A self-employed corn miller would have been doing fairly well in first half of 19th century because their industry was protected against cheap imports. Repeal of the Corn Laws in 1840s changed the situation.
A miller with his own business had assets so when he died I would expect there to have been a probate record. On the other hand he may have left debts. When a business was wound-up it was usual for notices to be placed in newspapers. James McKay may have been an employee at a mill.
Were corn mills included in Tithe Aplotments?

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Cornmiller in Ireland
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 10 March 19 02:13 GMT (UK) »
How do you know the James and the Winifred which you have found in Lancashire were the same people as a) another Winifred in Lancashire and b) any James and Winifred you have turned up in Ireland? Both were common names. Did you search for death registration of James in England ?
Ditto for John and William. What evidence do you have to connect William to Charles, apart from them both having a father called James? When and where did William marry in Preston? Imo if they were brothers, William would have put corn miller as his father's occupation, unless his father was alive at the time and doing another job. People getting married were inclined to put the most respectable occupation for their father. Corn miller was respectable. Who were witnesses at William's and Charles' weddings? Did William and John say on census where they were born?
 
Where was Winifred McKay in 1861? You said she was "in Lancashire Ö a hawker living in the town with Margaret Madden". You didn't name the town. Any idea who Margaret Madden was? were they related?

Tipperary is a long way from Sligo.
Ballyaltikilligan has mentioned sparse survival of Irish census. Add to this scarcity of church registers in first half of 19thC. Plus gaps, damage and bad handwriting in those which exist.
Re James McKay, father of Charles, noted as deceased on 1st marriage but not on 2nd. May simply have been an omission. When did Ellen, 1st wife of Charles die?
What religious denomination were they?

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Cornmiller in Ireland
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 10 March 19 03:58 GMT (UK) »
Returning to Lancashire.

Marriage 1857 St. John, Preston
William McKey, 22, Traveller, bachelor,  Simpson St.
Bridget Murphy, 27, Milliner, widow
Groom's father late James McKey, traveller
Bride's father James Hyman, porter
Witnesses Andrew & Bridget Gallagher

An earlier marriage at St. John, Preston 1841
Septimus Callender, 35, hawker, widower, Turk's Head Yard
Catherine McKay, 19, spinster, Turk's Head Yard
Groom's father Robert Callender, surgeon
Bride's father James McKay, hawker
(Turk's Head was a pub)
(Lancashire Online Parish Clerks)
There were families called McKey, McKie etc. in Preston from early decades of 19thC. Some may have been Scottish.
There was a James McKay aged 54 (b. c1797), occupation hawker in Lancashire on 1851 census.
 
Parents of Charles Mackay and Helen Flinn are omitted in transcription of marriage on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website. 13th Sep 1853 St. John the Baptist, Rochdale. Witness John Archibold, Ann Flinn.

Baptism 1854 St. John the Baptist, Rochdale
James McKay, child of Charles & Ellen (Flinn)
Sponsor Margaret Flinn

1861 census. Was Winifred McKay the 67 year-old hawker of paint and small-wares? Estimated birth year 1797. A lot of Irish women in England were hawkers.
Where was Winifred's obituary published?

Imo the James McKey, father of William who married in Preston 1857 was not the same man as James McKay, corn miller. Weddings of Charles and William were only 4 years apart. Charles and William were fairly near in age.  It's more likely that James McKay, father of Catherine who married in Preston 1841 was same person as father of William; that's just my opinion. Catherine should be investigated. Have you looked for William on 1851 census? Where was he 1861 onwards? Where did he give for place of birth?

Offline BallyaltikilliganG

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Re: Cornmiller in Ireland
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 10 March 19 08:54 GMT (UK) »
Maiden Stone, what clarity and display of knowledge. my nose would have been out of joint initially to receive it, but that is how the very best of family history can become foolproof. Annette good luck encorporating what you already have or can find further informations on.

re Irish Tithe Applotment books, :- i have not come across any further description of land or water use  other than the quality of the land ie good pasture, bog, mountain
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Offline Skoosh

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Re: Cornmiller in Ireland
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 10 March 19 16:46 GMT (UK) »
In Scotland a miller traditionally did not own the mill, which belonged to the laird! The estate tenants (the sucken) were thirled to that mill & could use no other, in addition to which they were obliged to supply the mill with peats for the kiln & provide so many days free labour to help maintain the mill & dam etc'.  The miller extracted a percentage of the corn ground (a thirteenth usually) with some for his assistant & this was sold at market to support himself & pay the rent etc.
 What ended the monopoly of the country miller was the abolition of thirlage & free tenant labour, the demand for wheatflour which needed harder, usually imported, stones & bakers shops to go with them, plus the introduction of large steam-powered mills in the towns with cheaper meal & flour distributed by rail. Mills were also converted for other purposes, so lost.
 Some mills hung on providing the traditional bere & oatmeal in country areas where meal was paid to farm-workers as part of their wage.  Possibly not a big thing in Ireland & things were a bit different there.

Skoosh.