Author Topic: John Cash or John Doran  (Read 438 times)

Offline crazyshotgug69

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John Cash or John Doran
« on: Saturday 16 March 19 14:33 GMT (UK) »
Hello, today I am requesting some help with going further back from some of my distant relatives.

1. John Cash
John Cash was a famous traveller and piper sometimes known as "Cash the Piper". His father was also John Cash who I am attempting to go back from.
John Cash, born about 1791, Wexford, County Wexford, Ireland. Married Elizabeth Ryan who was born 1795, Enniscorthy, County Wexford, Ireland. Death was 1870, Wexford, Wexford, Ireland. Elizabeth's parents were John Ryan and Susy MacNelly.

Edit: John "Cash the Piper" Cash has two recorded wives. Mary Conners (family search) and Polly Conners (read from the internet). Not sure which one though.

Further Edit: Polly could be a nickname for Mary, read on ancestry.

2. John Doran
Johnny Doran, another famous traveller and piper was the great grandson of John Cash on his grandmother's side. On his Doran side however, it goes up to another John Doran.
John Doran born 1823, County Wexford, Ireland. Married Jean Breen about 1847 in County Wexford, Ireland.

Any information on either of these families would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John Cash or John Doran
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 17 March 19 02:01 GMT (UK) »
1. Re John Cash senior.
Where did you obtain the information about death of John Cash in 1870? I looked on Irish civil records site for his death registration and couldn't find it. I searched death registrations for all of Ireland.
 Irish Genealogy.ie
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
Or was it Elizabeth Cash who died in 1870? Re-reading that paragraph in your opening post, the death information could relate to either John or Elizabeth.  :-\  Did whoever it was die in Wexford Town/Wexford Registration district ? Where and when did the other spouse die? Who was informant of each death?

When and where did John and Elizabeth marry? Where did you find the information about their marriage? What religious denomination were they? Who were witnesses?
You say John Cash was born "about 1791". Where does this information come from? Have you looked for his baptism? Civil registration of births, marriages and deaths began in Ireland in 1864. Before then you need to search church registers. Many Irish churches don't have registers dating back pre 1800. Some don't start until mid 19th century.  Catholic registers are free to view on National Library of Ireland site. If he was Catholic, who were baptism sponsors (godparents)?
I assume that John Cash born approximately 1791 in Wexford was John Cash senior, father to the John  Cash whom you say was a famous piper.
What was occupation of John Cash senior? Have you looked for him on Griffiths' Valuation and on Tithe Aplottments?

Re. John Cash junior, aka John Cash, the piper.
You say that he had 2 wives. Are you sure it was the same man? Where and when did he marry each wife? Polly might have been short for another name.  Have you found a death registration for either wife? Who were their children? Years and places of births? Religion?
Where and when was John Cash junior born? Have you found a baptism for him? If it was a Catholic baptism, who were sponsors (godparents) ? Did he have any brothers and sisters?
Where and when did John Cash junior die?

 Elizabeth Ryan. What is your source for her birth information and for her parents' names?

2. Re John Doran (the one born c.1823)
What is your source for his birth and his marriage?
When and where was the marriage? Have you searched for a church record of the marriage ?
Who were their children? Names, places and approximate years of birth?
Have you searched Griffiths' Valuation?
When & where did John Doran and his wife, Jean die?
What religion were they?

Can you give us dates and places for John Doran, the piper?

Have you done any Irish family history research before?

Answering these questions will save us time in the long -run and may give you ideas for other resources you can try for yourself. Irish civil registration website, many Irish Catholic parish registers, Griffiths' Valuation and Tithe Aplottment Books are all free online.
Finding information about people born in Ireland before 1800 isn't easy and is impossible in some cases. Going back a further generation will be harder still. What I said on another of your threads about problems of pre-1700 English research applies to Ireland pre-1800.

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Online Rosinish

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Re: John Cash or John Doran
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 17 March 19 02:40 GMT (UK) »
A quick search on 'go ogle' with "Cash the Piper" (including inverted commas) brings up a whole list of entries/info.

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie, MacDonald, MacInnes, MacIntyre, MacKinnon, Steele, Walker

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, MacKinnon, MacPhee

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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John Cash or John Doran
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 17 March 19 04:13 GMT (UK) »
Irish Genealogy.ie
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
Or was it Elizabeth Cash who died in 1870? Re-reading that paragraph in your opening post, the death information could relate to either John or Elizabeth.  :-\  Did whoever it was die in Wexford Town/Wexford Registration district ? Where and when did the other spouse die? Who was informant of each death?

Death registration 1870 Superintendent Registrar's district Wexford;  Eliza Cash aged 78. Returns quarter 1, vol. 4, page 764. No image. From Irish Genealogy ie
Recorded age at death wasn't always accurate.
Also 1871 Elizabeth aged 58.
There's a death registration 1865 in Wexford for a John Cash, aged 84.  No image.

Several birth registrations in Wexford district 1860s & 1870s, father, John and mother surname Connors. Mary Anne 1866, Bridget 1867, Miles 1870 and Michael 1872 are some of them. There may be more. Margaret, maiden name Connors, was mother of Mary Anne. Father's occupation was  dealer on some registrations and tinker on others. Residence at Michael's registration 1872 was Green St., Wexford.
There was another John Cash registering children in Wexford Sup. Reg. district in 1870s. He was a farmer. Son John was registered 1877, mother Mary (Murphy).

Marriages.
1877 Ann Cash married John Meredith. Ann's father was John Cash (living), tinsmith.
1894 Kate Cash to John Brown at R.C. Chapel, Wexford. Bride's father was Michael Cash, tinsmith.
1898 John Cash (25), tinker, no fixed abode, to Bridget Kelly, widow. Groom's father Michael Cash, tinker. Bride's father William Cassidy, tinker.

Several birth registrations of children of a Michael Cash in Wexford 1870s including Ellen 1870 and John 1874. Michael's occupation was tinker. Residence 1870 was Green St., same as some of John's children. Andrew 1869 parents Michael & Bridget (Connors). I didn't note mother's maiden name of Ellen and John.
1893 death registration of a Michael Cash, tinsmith, aged 80, in Wexford workhouse. (Workhouses had infirmaries.)
There must have been a 3rd Cash-Connor(s) marriage because birth registration of Margaret Connor 1871 has mother's maiden name Cash.
All information from Irish Genealogy ie


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John Cash or John Doran
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 17 March 19 04:52 GMT (UK) »
A quick search on 'go ogle' with "Cash the Piper" (including inverted commas) brings up a whole list of entries/info.

Annie
 

Results of googling. Apart from making me goggle-eyed.  ;D

www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/dorans.htm
John Doran died 1950 aged 42.
2008 was centenary of Johnny Doran, Travelling Piper. That gives him an estimated birth year of 1908. I like easy subtractions.
                     
Turning to Wikipedia.
John Doran 1907-1950, born Rathnew, Co. Wicklow.
Father John Doran.
Great-grandfather John Cash.

www.theirisharchives.com/articles/view/63/Jonny-Doran-The-Travelling-Piper-1907-50
Biographical notes include this info.
John Cash (Cash the Piper) married Polly Connors. John Cash died 1909 when John Doran was aged 2. Mentions James Cash (1853-1890), a son of John Cash and a daughter, Margaret. It says John Cash of Wexford was born 1832.

 RTE series "The Long Note" was mentioned on one website. I used to listen to it.

There's a death registration of a John Cash , labourer, aged 75 1908, Carrick-on-Suir. Informant Mary Curran. That's if he died in Ireland.
If that was him, the 1832 birth may have been calculated from his stated age at death and may not be correct.
           

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John Cash or John Doran
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 17 March 19 06:04 GMT (UK) »
There's a death registration of a John Cash , labourer, aged 75 1908, Carrick-on-Suir. Informant Mary Curran. That's if he died in Ireland.
If that was him, the 1832 birth may have been calculated from his stated age at death and may not be correct.
           
He was probably the John Cash who was there for 1901 census.

Offline Ruskie

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Re: John Cash or John Doran
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 17 March 19 06:28 GMT (UK) »
Crazyshotgug, can I ask you how you got from yourself to this particular John Cash born 1791 in Ireland. John Cash is likely to be a very common name.

Similarly with John Doran ... what path led you to him?

Especially with common names, you need to be sure you are following the correct families.


Offline crazyshotgug69

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Re: John Cash or John Doran
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 17 March 19 09:53 GMT (UK) »
1. Re John Cash senior.
Where did you obtain the information about death of John Cash in 1870? I looked on Irish civil records site for his death registration and couldn't find it. I searched death registrations for all of Ireland.
 Irish Genealogy.ie
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
Or was it Elizabeth Cash who died in 1870? Re-reading that paragraph in your opening post, the death information could relate to either John or Elizabeth.  :-\  Did whoever it was die in Wexford Town/Wexford Registration district ? Where and when did the other spouse die? Who was informant of each death?

When and where did John and Elizabeth marry? Where did you find the information about their marriage? What religious denomination were they? Who were witnesses?
You say John Cash was born "about 1791". Where does this information come from? Have you looked for his baptism? Civil registration of births, marriages and deaths began in Ireland in 1864. Before then you need to search church registers. Many Irish churches don't have registers dating back pre 1800. Some don't start until mid 19th century.  Catholic registers are free to view on National Library of Ireland site. If he was Catholic, who were baptism sponsors (godparents)?
I assume that John Cash born approximately 1791 in Wexford was John Cash senior, father to the John  Cash whom you say was a famous piper.
What was occupation of John Cash senior? Have you looked for him on Griffiths' Valuation and on Tithe Aplottments?

Re. John Cash junior, aka John Cash, the piper.
You say that he had 2 wives. Are you sure it was the same man? Where and when did he marry each wife? Polly might have been short for another name.  Have you found a death registration for either wife? Who were their children? Years and places of births? Religion?
Where and when was John Cash junior born? Have you found a baptism for him? If it was a Catholic baptism, who were sponsors (godparents) ? Did he have any brothers and sisters?
Where and when did John Cash junior die?

 Elizabeth Ryan. What is your source for her birth information and for her parents' names?

2. Re John Doran (the one born c.1823)
What is your source for his birth and his marriage?
When and where was the marriage? Have you searched for a church record of the marriage ?
Who were their children? Names, places and approximate years of birth?
Have you searched Griffiths' Valuation?
When & where did John Doran and his wife, Jean die?
What religion were they?

Can you give us dates and places for John Doran, the piper?

Have you done any Irish family history research before?

Answering these questions will save us time in the long -run and may give you ideas for other resources you can try for yourself. Irish civil registration website, many Irish Catholic parish registers, Griffiths' Valuation and Tithe Aplottment Books are all free online.
Finding information about people born in Ireland before 1800 isn't easy and is impossible in some cases. Going back a further generation will be harder still. What I said on another of your threads about problems of pre-1700 English research applies to Ireland pre-1800.

I found all of this information here:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/GMDK-R16

This is where it says everything. Hopefully it should answer the questions aswell.

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: John Cash or John Doran
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 17 March 19 17:55 GMT (UK) »

John Cash, born about 1791, Wexford, County Wexford, Ireland. Married Elizabeth Ryan who was born 1795, Enniscorthy, County Wexford, Ireland. Death was 1870, Wexford, Wexford, Ireland. Elizabeth's parents were John Ryan and Susy MacNelly.

Enniscorthy Catholic parish registers at National Library of Ireland
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0593
Baptisms and marriages began 1794. Deaths register Oct. 1815-1880. Confirmations 1848-1880.
1861 census for Enniscorthy is also here, after all the registers.

Edit. Registers are various dates. The baptism register, starting 1794 on the first microfilm is neatly laid out with beautiful handwriting. It seems to be a copy of a baptism register on the second microfilm, which is untidy, with entries crammed on page.
Looking at Eliza's baptism in the register on the first microfilm, a note in the last column is "militia". So Eliza Ryan's father, John Ryan, was a member of the militia.
 Eliza was born near the start of the wars with France which lasted until 1815. John Ryan may have been moved around Ireland and Britain as part of his militia service. He may have gone on to join a regular army regiment. On the other hand he may have done all his military service in Ireland. There was unrest in Ireland at the time, threatened French invasions during the decade and rebellions in 1798. County Wexford was a centre for one of the risings.
Sponsors at Eliza's baptism were Ben Wildrife (?) and Anne Myles. Do those names mean anything to you? Wildrife is an unusual name. Perhaps another militia member? Have you looked for Wildrife entries in Enniscorthy parish registers or in Tithe Aplotttment Books or Griffiths Valuation or census to see if it was a local surname? Sponsors were often, although not always, relatives.
You could browse the baptism registers to look for baptisms of other children of the marriage or possible relatives. Have you searched the marriage register for marriage of John Ryan & Suzy Macnelly? The register began 1794. It's possible they moved from elsewhere. Enniscorthy is unusual in having a death register starting so early - 1815. If I were you I would look in it for possible deaths of Ryan and Macnelly/Macnally/Macneilly  families. Search for Nelly/Nally/Neilly too in case the Mac was missing from name.
Finding an Irish census for 1861 is a bonus. I suggest you browse it, looking for any MacNelly/MacNally/Nally &c. and Ryan. The census was taken only a few years after Griffiths' Valuation.
You're lucky to have such a wealth of early documents to consult. And even some with perfect handwriting. Some of us have gone cross-eyed trying to read scrawls in parish registers when researching our ancestors.  ;D