Author Topic: Edwards conundrum in Oswestry & Llanymynech  (Read 398 times)

Offline nudge67

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Edwards conundrum in Oswestry & Llanymynech
« on: Sunday 17 March 19 03:52 GMT (UK) »
Hi all. It's been a while. Just going to post something up for clarity. Back on the hunt for my Edwards line, who emigrated to South Oz in 1850. In the 1841 census they are in Llanforda, two miles west of Oswestry, Shropshire. I know from Australian BDM details that he was born in late 1801, and his father is John Edwards. The most likely matching record is this birth in Oswestry:
Quote
1802, Jan. 3. Thomas, s. of John Edwards, pumpmr., & Margaret, b. Dec. 24 ... bap.
Other records that appear to be for the same family include:
1799, June 9. Margt., d. of John Edwards, pumpmaker, & Margt., b. May 29 ... bap.
1803, July 21. William, s. of John Edwards, Whitehorse, & Margt., b. 15 ... bap.
1805, May 20. Richard, s. of John Edwards, pumpman, & Margaret, b. 12 ... bap.

Now I found this marriage that might be a fit:
Quote
1769, Sep. 19. John Edwards, widr., & Margaret Rogers, sp., of O., lic.
One of the witnesses to this marriage is Daniel Edwards. While the names John Edwards and Thomas Edwards are a dime a dozen in the area, Daniel Edwards is rare. The only one at the time seems to have born in nearby Llanymynech in 1773, about six miles to the south. His father is John Edwards (1731-1805), who happens to be a pumpmaker! Daniel has an older stepbrother named John, born at Llanymynech in 1763.

As John Edwards is a widower, we need a previous marriage. I did find this in Oswestry:
Quote
1786, May 15. John Edwards of Llanymynech, bac., & Margaret Aeron of O., wid., lic.
Margaret Aaron was a widow from Llanforda, with three children, the eldest was 21. However, if her new husband is John Edwards Jr, he married an considerably older woman, in fact he would be only 4 years older than his eldest stepson. If that is John Edwards Sr the pumpmaker, then he did a Mick Jagger and fathered a child at 73! But the record does not state John as a widower for this marriage, John Sr had already been married and widowed twice by then. Did John Edwards Jr take up his father's trade of pumpmaking and operate from the White Horse hotel in Oswestry? Margaret Edwards died at the White Horse 22nd July 1796, John remarries two months later?

Just to add to the confusion there's this:
Quote
1797, July 16. John, s. of John Edwards, W. Horse, & Elizth., b. June 29 ... bap.
Elizabeth? Shouldn't that be Margaret?

Anyone got any ideas on this mess?






NSW Convict: Peter WIFFIN (alias VIVIAN)
VDL Convict: Richard REES
SA Pioneers: Hornsby, Wallis, Willoughby, Floate, Mills, Chesson, Degenhardt.
SA Old Colonists: McFeat, Tyler, Ladner, Edwards, Cassidy, Rhodes, Shaw, Waye, Sibly.
SA Colonists: Jones, Pike, Bowyer, Davey.

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Offline Greensleeves

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Re: Edwards conundrum in Oswestry & Llanymynech
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 17 March 19 07:52 GMT (UK) »
One thought I have which may or may not be any use is that in many places in Wales families used patronymic surnames ie the child took the father's first name as his or her surname.  At one time this was signified by the insertion of 'ap' (son of) or ferch (daughter of) before the name so, for example, if Howell Jones had a son called William, then William would be William ap Howell.  Eventually in many cases the 'ap' became shortened so the name became Powell.  Often the 'ap' was dropped altogether.

This doesn't help you in your search I'm afraid but  further back you go in your tree, the more likely it is that you will find the patronymic surname in Wales.  So John Edwards does not necessarily have a father with the surname Edwards - his surname could have been John.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/family_03_welshnaming.shtml

Kindest regards
GS
Suffolk: Pearl(e),  Garnham, Southgate, Blo(o)mfield,Grimwood/Grimwade,Josselyn/Gosling
Durham/Yorkshire: Sedgwick/Sidgwick, Shadforth
Ireland: Davis
Norway: Torreson/Torsen/Torrison
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Edwards conundrum in Oswestry & Llanymynech
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 17 March 19 08:00 GMT (UK) »

It would be useful to know about your EDWARDS family in South Australia.

Who arrived in 1850?

"... I know from Australian BDM details that he was born in late 1801, and his father is John Edwards."

Who is "he"...what record gives you father's name?   What record gives a birth date of late 1801?

Offline Gadget

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Re: Edwards conundrum in Oswestry & Llanymynech
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 17 March 19 08:42 GMT (UK) »
I have Edwards (and Rogers)  ancestors from that area at around that time but I don't think they were relatives of the people you mention. Rogers and Edwards were very common surnames in the area.

More specifically,  the John Edwards and Margaret marriage doesn't look likely. A marriage in  1769 and still having children in 1805 seems a little doubtful. If Margaret had been circa 20 in 1769, she would be too old to have children in the early 1800s.

Have you got the 1786 and 1769 marriages mixed up? It would be worth checking the burial records for any relevant deaths.
 
As wivenhoe says, more information is needed for us to work back consistently. I'm not clear how you have linked your Australian family back to Llanforda.


Gadget
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Offline nudge67

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Re: Edwards conundrum in Oswestry & Llanymynech
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 17 March 19 09:05 GMT (UK) »
Thanks all. you raise some fair points, here is what I know for fact:

Thomas, his wife Elizabeth, and children Thomas, Elizabeth and John arrived in South Australia from Oswestry in 1850, where he had been a farmer of note. He replicated that success in South Australia, building a large property empire, and was active on local councils. In Australia, there is quite a lot available on this family, in newspapers and books. I located them in the 1841 census at Llanforda, where everything matched what we knew, ages, names, etc. Very confident that is them.

Thomas remarried in his 80's after his wife died, his father's name on his South Australian marriage certificate is stated as John Edwards. From his ages given on  his marriage and death certificates, as well as in obituaries, we can narrow his birth to a fairly precise time, the 4th quarter of 1801.

I've been using the parish registers for Shropshire published by Mel Lockie to build a picture of what might be, what a great resource that is! The quoted entries are from her site.

www.melocki.org.uk/MelockiSalop.html

of course, I have struck the Welsh patronymic naming thing before, on my mother's side, I understand that went well into the 19th century. However, at what point in time were people of Welsh descent required to adopt surnames if they lived on the English side of the border? The Shropshire parish registers are consistently using surnames even in those Welsh border areas from the time of Queen Anne.


NSW Convict: Peter WIFFIN (alias VIVIAN)
VDL Convict: Richard REES
SA Pioneers: Hornsby, Wallis, Willoughby, Floate, Mills, Chesson, Degenhardt.
SA Old Colonists: McFeat, Tyler, Ladner, Edwards, Cassidy, Rhodes, Shaw, Waye, Sibly.
SA Colonists: Jones, Pike, Bowyer, Davey.

Offline nudge67

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Re: Edwards conundrum in Oswestry & Llanymynech
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 17 March 19 09:10 GMT (UK) »
btw, Gadget, I can see I didn't explain my thoughts well. I was talking about two consecutive wives both named Margaret.

They don't seem to have been an imaginative lot when it comes to names back then. If the principal at a girls school yelled out "Elizabeth & Margeret, come here!" the schoolyard would empty.  ;D
NSW Convict: Peter WIFFIN (alias VIVIAN)
VDL Convict: Richard REES
SA Pioneers: Hornsby, Wallis, Willoughby, Floate, Mills, Chesson, Degenhardt.
SA Old Colonists: McFeat, Tyler, Ladner, Edwards, Cassidy, Rhodes, Shaw, Waye, Sibly.
SA Colonists: Jones, Pike, Bowyer, Davey.

Offline Gadget

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Re: Edwards conundrum in Oswestry & Llanymynech
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 17 March 19 09:11 GMT (UK) »
Just a point about Welsh patronymics in that area at that time ~

It is unlikely that they were used so late in the locality. As I said in my previous post, I have many ancestors from that area so have looked at many many  local records.  I have  found hardly any patronyms in use so late there.


Gadget
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

Offline Gadget

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Re: Edwards conundrum in Oswestry & Llanymynech
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 17 March 19 09:17 GMT (UK) »
One thing thst you might do is to check for wills. This area was in the St Asaph diocese and   can be searched for free on the Welsh Wills site:

https://www.library.wales/discover/nlw-resources/wills/


Gadget
Census &  BMD information Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk and GROS - www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

Offline nudge67

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Re: Edwards conundrum in Oswestry & Llanymynech
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 17 March 19 10:11 GMT (UK) »
Wills! of course, why didn't I think of that? Thanks Gadget. I will look at that.

The John Edwards of Llanymynech who is a 19th century pumpmaker is easily traceable back to the Reverend john Edwards who began the Llanymynech Parish Register in 1666, who was the son-in-law of Bishop George Griffith of St Asaph diocese.

I guess the question I am trying to figure out is this: are John Edwards, pumpmaker of Llanymynech, and John Edwards, pumpmaker of Oswestry, one and the same? Or father and son? Or unrelated?
NSW Convict: Peter WIFFIN (alias VIVIAN)
VDL Convict: Richard REES
SA Pioneers: Hornsby, Wallis, Willoughby, Floate, Mills, Chesson, Degenhardt.
SA Old Colonists: McFeat, Tyler, Ladner, Edwards, Cassidy, Rhodes, Shaw, Waye, Sibly.
SA Colonists: Jones, Pike, Bowyer, Davey.