Author Topic: DRAPER's of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.  (Read 381 times)

Offline Poppy Rose

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DRAPER's of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.
« on: Wednesday 27 March 19 15:42 GMT (UK) »
Hello

I am not a relative, but I have been trying to help a descendant of Leviathan Draper. Leviathan was the Leviathan that lived with Ambrose Thorpe as his wife.

If we have it right we have Joseph Draper as her father, another Joseph Draper, a musician, as her grandfather, and Samuel Draper as her great grandfather, but have a few questions relating to the last two generations.

From Familysearch Samuel Draper, with Margaret/Peggy, appears to have been the father of Favoridge 1788, Hannah 1795, Susanna 1795, Joseph 1798, Kaisa 1800, James 1806, and Ambrose 1808.

Both Joseph Draper, and also Hannah Draper, above, have turned up in some census returns, and some newspapers, but nothing has been found so far relating to any of their siblings. If anyone knows anything at all about those siblings we would be very interested.

In the 1861 Hertfordshire census is a younger Samuel Draper, also with a Margaret, plus three children. He turns up in the newspapers, too. This Samuel died in 1870 while camping on Bernard's Heath, St. Albans. A newspaper gave his age as 82, but when his death was registered it was put down to 80. Samuel was a fiddle player. Could he, by any chance, have been another son of the older Samuel?

In the 1851 census, on FamilySearch, unmarried Hannah Draper has a niece Kelly Draper, aged 4, and a nephew Elias Draper, aged 9, staying with her. Does anyone know who their parents were?

In the several census returns for Hitchin there was another Elias Draper. This one was born about 1812 or 13, and was a musician. He died in 1890, aged 78. Could he have been a relative of the older Samuel?

And one last question. Has anyone come across the baptism of the older Samuel Draper?

Lots of questions! Thank you for reading them. Hoping someone can help us out with some of them.

 :)
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Offline CitizenSmith

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Re: DRAPER's of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 09 April 19 11:53 BST (UK) »
Hi Poppy Rose

I have been researching and compiling a database of Romany Draper references for many decades. Give me a couple of days and I can come back to you with some details about the people you mention.

It's good to make contact with another Draper researcher: we seem to be few and far between.

More soon
Sharon
Smith - East Anglia & Lancashire
Taylor - East Anglia
Draper
Hope
Shaw
Gray
Boswell
Lovell
Robinson
Chilcott
All Blackpool Gypsies
"Royal Epping Forest Gypsies": ball-giving group
"Borrow's Gypsies": the people that the novelist George Borrow (1803-1881) knew and wrote about

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Offline Poppy Rose

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Re: DRAPERs of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 10 April 19 08:45 BST (UK) »
Thank you very much Sharon for your reply. Looking forward to the next one.  :)
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Littlewood, Bacon, Oxley and Fairbrother in North East Essex.

Offline CitizenSmith

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Re: DRAPER's of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 10 April 19 18:27 BST (UK) »
Hi Poppy Rose

I think it might be simpler to answer each of your questions in a separate post so here is my response to this one: <<In the several census returns for Hitchin there was another Elias Draper. This one was born about 1812 or 13, and was a musician. He died in 1890, aged 78. Could he have been a relative of the older Samuel?>>

This Elias was, I believe, baptised as Goliah Draper in Flamstead, Herts, on 7 March 1813, son of Edward and Mary Ann Draper; occupation: Poor pedlar or gipsey; abode - Traveller, uncertain.

Elias married firstly Christiana Shaw on 19 Feb 1838 at St Paul's, Bedford, where he is described a musician, son of Edward, musician; and Christiana is a pedlar, daughter of James Shaw, musician.

Christiana died the following year aged only 21. Elias then married Sarah Day in Hitchin on 28 January 1841, described as a widower, musician, son of Edward, a musician.

Elias' parents - Edward and Mary Ann - also had: a son Randolph, baptised 1807 in Hemel Hempstead; a daughter Caroline, baptised 1810 in Flamstead; a son Divaris, baptised in Caddington, Bedfordshire in 1815. There is also a Hezekiah, baptised by the surname Carey in Higham Gobion, Northants, in 1804, with parents Edward and Mary, and included here because members of the Draper family in this region were known to sometimes use Carey as an alias.

The current hypothesis is that this Edward Draper was the brother of Favouridge, Hannah, Susanna, Joseph, Kaisa, James and Ambrose and the son of the older Samuel and Margaret but we don't as yet have a confirmed baptism for him. There is one possibility, yet to be checked in the original register, a transcribed entry on Find My Past for an Edward Draper baptised on 26 August 1781, Haverhill, Suffolk, son of Esau and Margaret, Travellers. Perhaps the transcriber has mis-read the father's name or the vicar mis-heard it?

Hope this helps for starters. :)
Sharon
Smith - East Anglia & Lancashire
Taylor - East Anglia
Draper
Hope
Shaw
Gray
Boswell
Lovell
Robinson
Chilcott
All Blackpool Gypsies
"Royal Epping Forest Gypsies": ball-giving group
"Borrow's Gypsies": the people that the novelist George Borrow (1803-1881) knew and wrote about

Offline Poppy Rose

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Re: DRAPER's of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 11 April 19 00:23 BST (UK) »
Thank you Sharon for sharing your research, and yes it is helpful and also very interesting.  :)

I had a feeling Elias of Hitchin, the musician, belonged somewhere in the Draper family, but I couldn't work out where he fitted in from the online records. The Drapers look to have been a rather talented family, and now, most likely, with the addition of Edward, the father of Elias/Goliah, there is one more musician.

The baptism of Edward son of Esau and Margaret in Haverhill seems interesting. Perhaps Esau is actually a badly written Sam, or, like some of the others in the family, it could have been an alternative name he used now and again. While looking through the old newspapers I was surprised to find that Leviathan's father, as you most likely know, turned up at various times as Joseph Clarke, Joseph Draper, Jeremiah Shaw and Josiah Smith. Very helpfully, though, the Chelmsford Chronicle reported that last three names all belonged to the same man. 

Thank you again. Looking forward to part two.
Gilding, Eagle, Perry, Wright, Twite, Cooper, Gibson and Ramm in West & Central Norfolk.
Littlewood, Bacon, Oxley and Fairbrother in North East Essex.

Offline CitizenSmith

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Re: DRAPER's of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.
« Reply #5 on: Friday 12 April 19 11:10 BST (UK) »
Hi Poppy Rose

Here is the second instalment, in response to your question <<From Familysearch Samuel Draper, with Margaret/Peggy, appears to have been the father of Favoridge 1788, Hannah 1795, Susanna 1795, Joseph 1798, Kaisa 1800, James 1806, and Ambrose 1808....If anyone knows anything at all about those siblings we would be very interested.>>

For Favouridge Draper, I have that she was baptised on 15 December 1788 at Cottered, Hertfordshire, daughter of Samuel and Margaret Draper, who were described as 'travellers, pauper'. I believe she became the partner of Saunders Smith and was buried at St Nicholas, Stevenage, Herts, in 1826, being described as 38 years old and being brought from Ippolitts.

For Hannah Draper, I have that she was baptised on 20 March 1795, Manuden, Essex, daughter of Samuel and Margaret Draper. There are no other details in this baptism.

For James Draper, I have that he was baptised on 9 March 1806, Tewin, Herts, son of Samuel and Margaret Draper, recorded as being travelling people. He was tried for horse stealing at Herts Assizes in July 1830 and was first sentenced to death and then reprieved and sentenced to transportation for life. He travelled to New South Wales in 1831 to serve his sentence and was given a Conditional Pardon in 1848 on the basis that he was free but not allowed to return to the UK. So we assume that he stayed in Australia.

For Ambrose Draper: he was baptised at Aston, Herts, on 30 June 1808, son of Samuel and Margaret Draper, described as 'vagrants'. He was buried on 26 May 1830 in Aston, aged 21, being described as being of Aston End.

For Joseph Draper: he was baptised on 29 April 1798 at St Michael's, Bishop's Stortford, Herts, being born the previous day. There is no other information in register relating to him – but none is given for any child's baptism in this period. He died on 5 January 1877 at Fisher’s Green, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, aged 83, described as A Day Labourer. Cause of death: Age Climacteric Disease. Informant: Ann Draper, Widow of Deceased, Present at the Death, Fisher’s Green, Stevenage.

This wife Ann - Joseph's second wife - claims Dunton in Bedfordshire as her birthplace in the 1881 census, meaning that she could be the Ann Smith who was baptised in Dunton, Beds, on 9 May 1802, daughter of James and Mary Smith, travellers. Ann died on 24 November 1887 at the Union Workhouse, Hitchin, Hertfordshire, aged 86, described as ‘widow of Joseph Draper, A Hawker of Stevenage. Cause of death: Senile Decay. Informant: Alfred Fowler, Master of Workhouse, Hitchin’.

I don't have any information on Kaisa or Susanne apart from their baptisms. Kaisa was baptised on 14 Dec 1800 at Ayot St Peter, Herts, 'born on 8 Nov 1800', daughter of Samll and Margaret Draper. Susanne (name spelt like that) was baptised on 20 December 1795 at Ardley, Herts, daughter of Samuel and Peggy Draper. There is no further information in the entry.

More answers soon.
Sharon


 
Smith - East Anglia & Lancashire
Taylor - East Anglia
Draper
Hope
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Gray
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Offline Poppy Rose

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Re: DRAPER's of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.
« Reply #6 on: Friday 12 April 19 16:58 BST (UK) »
Thank you very much Sharon.  :)

I had wondered why no records for James Draper were turning up in Britain. It now appears he wasn't even in the country, and with Favouridge and Ambrose sadly dying young they, too, had gone before the early census returns. That also means that neither James or Ambrose could have been the father of Hannah Draper's niece and nephew, that were living with her in the 1851 census.

I have noticed that the younger Samuel and Margaret Draper had the birth of an unnamed daughter registered in 1846. She would have been the right age for Hannah's niece. Interestingly that same Samuel and Margaret had with them, in the 1861 census, a daughter named Hannah, besides a son Edward, and a younger daughter, Famebridge.
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Offline CitizenSmith

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Re: DRAPER's of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 14 April 19 14:11 BST (UK) »
Hi Poppy Rose

Here is another Draper instalment, this time concerning the Samuel Draper, with a wife Margaret, who can be found in 1851 and 1861 censuses in King's Walden, Hertfordshire with his children. I have one baptism that could possibly be his but, if it is his, then he is not a son of the older Samuel. Here's the baptism:

Sam and Rychus Draper, sons of Sibby Draper, bp 8 Aug 1799, Kensworth, Beds/Herts. Mother described as being of Newton, Bucks. Rychus died a few months later and was buried 4 October 1799, Wavendon, Bucks, described as 'infant'.

The other information I have on Sam the fiddler is:

Died 10 January 1870, Bernards Heath, St Albans, described as musician aged 80 [Source: death certificate]. Buried St Peter's churchyard, St Albans, 12 January 1870 described as 'of St Michael's aged 80' [Source: original parish register]. As you know in the Herts Advertiser, "Jan. 10, in a tent, on Bernard's heath, St Alban's, Samuel Draper, aged 82". A little later that year, there's the following obituary for him in the Luton Times and Advertiser, Saturday 28 May 1870:
“STOTFOLD
Died recently at the above place Samuel Draper, better known as “Old Sam Draper,” a gipsy fiddler, who will be remembered by the people of Herts. And Beds. The old man breathed his last at this village, and bequeathed £205 5s. in the bank to his widow and to an old friend that now lives in Luton practising medicine, a dozen clothes pegs and his portrait.”


Sam and Margaret's children were:

Ann Sicilian Draper, baptised 5 Sept 1830, Little Brickhill, Bucks, daughter of Samuel and Margaret Draper, described as being ‘of Little Brickhill, Gypsies’. She married a James Shaw and is in the same encampment as her parents in King's Walden, Herts, in the 1851 census, recorded as 'Salena Shaw'.

Margaret Draper who was born in about 1833. Nothing more known - but she could possibly be the Margaret Draper, described as a Spinster Gipsey, living in a tent, who has a son Samuel baptised on 14 Feb 1874 in Ardeley, Hertfordshire.

Ambrose Draper, probably the Ambrose Draper, son of Samuel and Christiana Draper, who was baptised 3 June 1838, Gt Wymondley, Herts, father described as traveller of Gt Wymondley. Perhaps the minister was mistaken or confused about the mother's name. Ambrose, like his brother Edward below, had numerous brushes with the law and frequently appears in newspaper reports, sometimes with his brother. He was a well-known fiddle player.

Hannah Draper, born about 1840. Nothing more known - but she could be the mother of a child called 'Cambridge' - perhaps a mistake for 'Famebridge'? - whose death is registered on 11 April 1871 in Loughton, Essex, described as a daughter of Hannah Draper, aged 1 year 10 months.

Edward Draper, baptised 18 Feb 1844, Wheathampstead, Herts, son of Samuel and Margaret Draper, father described as 'wandering, fidler'. Edward like Ambrose had several brushes with the law - sometimes with his brother - and is frequently mentioned in crime reports in local newspapers. In 1864 he was imprisoned in Bedford Gaol and the Bedford Record Office holds a photo of him in the Gaol register. He too was a well-known fiddle player.

Famebridge Draper, born 8 Jan 1850, White Way Bottom, King's Walden, daughter of Samuel Draper, Gypsy, and Margaret nee Pierce. She died 6 Oct 1866, St Bernard's Heath, St Albans, aged 16, and was buried at St Peter's, St Albans, described as being of St Michael's.

Sam Draper - known as 'Sammy' - was widely known and admired for his fiddle playing. Photos, paintings and drawings exist of him: for example on the cover of the book My Ancestors were Gypsies, published by the Society of Genealogists; in a major oil painting by Samuel Lucas held at Hitchin Art Gallery where Sam and his donkey are in the centre foreground; and other sketches and paintings of him and members of his family held in the archives in the same Gallery.

Sam's wife Margaret was living in Hitchin Union Workhouse in 1881, described as a widow aged 77, a Travelling Gipsy, born Warden, Bedfordshire. She died in Welwyn Workhouse in 1888, described as the widow of Samuel Draper, a Travelling Musician of Welwyn.

Finally for this time, I don't have any possible baptisms for the older Samuel, the father of Favouridge etc. The only early reference I have to a Samuel is the burial of a man of that name on 5 October 1824 in Weston, Herts, described as 'a stroller without any fixed place of abode, aged 93 years' - but I don't know who he is.

Sharon
Smith - East Anglia & Lancashire
Taylor - East Anglia
Draper
Hope
Shaw
Gray
Boswell
Lovell
Robinson
Chilcott
All Blackpool Gypsies
"Royal Epping Forest Gypsies": ball-giving group
"Borrow's Gypsies": the people that the novelist George Borrow (1803-1881) knew and wrote about

Offline CitizenSmith

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Re: DRAPER's of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 14 April 19 14:57 BST (UK) »
Hi Poppy Rose

The Samuel Lucas painting that I referred to just now that is held at Hitchin Art Gallery and that features Sam Draper, can be viewed on Twitter here, with Sam, his wife Margaret and his son Ambrose helpfully labelled:

https://twitter.com/nhertsmuseum/status/844854376787148801?lang=es

Sharon
Smith - East Anglia & Lancashire
Taylor - East Anglia
Draper
Hope
Shaw
Gray
Boswell
Lovell
Robinson
Chilcott
All Blackpool Gypsies
"Royal Epping Forest Gypsies": ball-giving group
"Borrow's Gypsies": the people that the novelist George Borrow (1803-1881) knew and wrote about