Author Topic: Liverpool Brick wall - Mary Ellis  (Read 829 times)

Offline gemmanoon

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Liverpool Brick wall - Mary Ellis
« on: Monday 08 April 19 04:31 BST (UK) »
Help!

My ancestor, Mary Ellis, was born in Liverpool about 1860, according to the census records I have for her post-marriage. I have her marriage certificate to John Emmett in 1789, which includes the name of her father, and his occupation as a labourer. There is some disagreement among the family researchers as to whether it says Robert or Herbert for his name (or, if you listen to my husband, Bobest :-\)

(aside, I'm fairly certain this is the correct marriage certificate as John's address matches his family's home, but both he and his father are listed as carpenters when they were both shipwrights, and I'm not sure why).

I originally thought it said Herbert (based on them choosing the name for her son, and because there was a Herbert Ellis living nearby), and my cousin thinks it is Robert - which is definitely more common in the time period. SO there are several family trees out there which show completely different ancestors for the Mary Ellis that married John Emmett. All I know for cerftain is that they were both literate, and John came from a fairly well off family.

Thing is, I can't find Mary prior to her marriage - with either Herbert OR Robert as a dad. She does not list an occupation on her marriage certificate, although she is living in Goring Street in 1879.  According to her marriage certificate, she was born in 1860, but her death certificate (she died after John) has her as born in 1856. On every census after her marriage she is listed as born in Liverpool, but I cannot find her birth certificate conclusively. I have one possibility, but it has her born in 1855. If her spouse really did think she was 19 at their marriage she must have had really good skin, is all I'm saying.

Oh and John lied about his age, too. HE was 19, not 21, so maybe their ages got mixed up? ARGH

Anyway, please help. I'm going around in circles with this lady, and I think I'm at that stage where I talk myself out of any of the records until I'm not convinced she ever existed  :o


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Offline Ruskie

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Re: Liverpool Brick wall - Mary Ellis
« Reply #1 on: Monday 08 April 19 04:43 BST (UK) »
I think the name looks like Robert but I can see why you think it might be Herbert, though the r is missing. Are there any other capital Rs or Hs on the certificate for comparison?

Do you know the name of Mary's mother?

There is a family in Liverpool in the 1861 census with father Robert, mother Sarah, daur Mary aged 5 and a step son aged 10. Robert is 30 and a Labourer, born in Wales. Sarah is 40. Step son is Thomas F aged 10. Not quite the age you expected Mary to be ....  :-\

Have you already seen and dismissed this family?

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Offline gemmanoon

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Re: Liverpool Brick wall - Mary Ellis
« Reply #2 on: Monday 08 April 19 04:55 BST (UK) »
There are no Rs or Hs on the rest of the certificate, although it also looks remarkably like the B in Banns, hence my husband's helpful suggestion of bobest.

I've not dismissed that Mary, but I'm not sure how to tie her into the tree to be sure, as there is a second Mary Ellis living in Toxteth, about the same age, who doesn't marry until later on - and has a father called Robert.


Offline gemmanoon

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Re: Liverpool Brick wall - Mary Ellis
« Reply #3 on: Monday 08 April 19 05:02 BST (UK) »
I just double-checked all the census records, including the 1891 when her husband is a stray. She consistently has her ago supporting a 1860/61 birthday.

However, when she died in 1938 , her daughter (my great nan) reported the death and listed her age as 82 years. John had been dead for 16 years at this point. From family mythology, my great-nan didn't get on with her mum in the least, but all I've got is the recollections of my then-90-year-old great-great-aunts to base that on. I just have no idea if my great-nan just got her mother's age wrong, or if Mary might have admitted to being older than she'd claimed at some point after 1911.

Offline Ruskie

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Re: Liverpool Brick wall - Mary Ellis
« Reply #4 on: Monday 08 April 19 05:04 BST (UK) »
A couple of thoughts ...

Shipwright and carpenter are parallel occupations.

Mary might have fibbed about her age when she married - if she was 21 she did not need parent's permission.

Offline gemmanoon

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Re: Liverpool Brick wall - Mary Ellis
« Reply #5 on: Monday 08 April 19 05:16 BST (UK) »
she has her age as 19 on the marriage certificate - it's John who fibs and pretends to be 20 when he was only 19. If her daughter is correct and Mary lied about her age, then wouldn't her parents have potentially been in on it? Her dad isn't listed as deceased - but the witnesses are both names that are not in our tree, so possibly friends?

You know, maybe tracking down Goring St might help. I'm certain this is the right couple becaue of John's address. He lived on Wellington Street rather than Wellington Road, but it's close enough in the name for me to be confident it's him.

Edit! Yay - managed to include the marriage certificate info! Then re-edited to not break crown copyright!


Offline Ruskie

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Re: Liverpool Brick wall - Mary Ellis
« Reply #6 on: Monday 08 April 19 05:25 BST (UK) »
There is a Wellington Road in Wavertree.

John saying he is 20 when he was 19 is not significant so does not seem like a lie - at least there would be no reason to lie. It would have been different if he had claimed to be 21. Are you sure he had not had his birthday?

Offline gemmanoon

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Re: Liverpool Brick wall - Mary Ellis
« Reply #7 on: Monday 08 April 19 07:31 BST (UK) »
yup he was born June 18th so was three months shy of 20, but I suppose it's not significant.

His family lived in Wellington Street, Toxteth, for 30+ years. I'm assuming that "St Michael's, Toxteth," is St Michael in the Hamlet, which is close enough to the Dingle to make sense if I assume that the Goring St Mary Ellis lists in her address is the one that used to be in that area back before the war.

She's frustrating, I'll say that for her :-/


Offline garstonite

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Re: Liverpool Brick wall - Mary Ellis
« Reply #8 on: Monday 08 April 19 08:19 BST (UK) »
interesting thread for me personally - my granny was Martha Ellis - Garston family - and there is also an Emmet Garston family - would you like me to post any Ellis family in my tree - Marys dad may well have been a Garston man ?
my earliest was Edward Ellis b 1799 who had 9 children

ADDED

have a look through this and see if anything looks likely for A CONNECTION

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&localeSubcountryName=Lancashire&query=%2Bsurname%3Aellis~%20%2Bany_place%3Agarston~%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland%20%2Brecord_subcountry%3A%22England%2CLancashire%22
The Ellis family came to Garston to work in the Copper Works - English didn't know enough about Copper - so they brought Welshmen in who did ..
 :)
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford