Author Topic: Estimating the worth/income of an estate  (Read 1436 times)

Offline Arvanitakis

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Estimating the worth/income of an estate
« on: Saturday 13 April 19 19:38 BST (UK) »
Dear all,

I wonder if anyone has any knowledge/resources of trying to estimate the income generated by an estate/total value from the number of acres, or vice versa?

To give an example - my 5th great grandfather died in 1817 with an estate of around 205 acres (calculated from later 1851 census) in two parishes in Merionethshire, North Wales. In his will he asked for this to be mortgaged to a total value of £1,200. Is there any way of working out what sort of income this would have brought him per anum?

He also appears in the 1790 land tax, and wonder if it can be generated from this.


Thank you in advance for any help,
Arvanitakis

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Estimating the worth/income of an estate
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 13 April 19 23:36 BST (UK) »
I have 2 farmer's wills from this period and am also interested in their values.
There were hard times after end of Napoleonic War. 1816 was known as "The Year of no Summer" with consequent harvest failure throughout Europe.
Annual income depended on interest rates so may have fluctuated.
Are you sure the land-holdings were the same acreage in 1817 as they were in 1851? Value per acre depended on type of land and usage, as per Tithe Applotments. Corn Laws protected British producers.
Cowban

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Estimating the worth/income of an estate
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 14 April 19 00:24 BST (UK) »
"UK Interest Rates: a brief history" by Larry Elliott, "The Guardian" Economics blog.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2014/mar/03/uk-interest-rates-a-brief-history
According to this there was a long stable period of interest rates. Bank of England raised the rate from 4% to 5% in 1719, reducing it to 4% in 1822.

Historical inflation rate calculator
www.whatsthecost.com/historic.cpi.aspx
There are other inflation rate calculators.
Inflation rate fluctuated widely during decade after 1815; sometimes it was negative.

For a brief overview of economic conditions 1812-1822 read "Causes of the Discontent and Distress" on the Peel Web.
www.historyhome.co.uk/c-eight/distress/distress.htm
Cowban

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Estimating the worth/income of an estate
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 14 April 19 00:26 BST (UK) »


To give an example - my 5th great grandfather died in 1817 with an estate of around 205 acres (calculated from later 1851 census) in two parishes in Merionethshire, North Wales. In his will he asked for this to be mortgaged to a total value of £1,200.


Hello

Is that what the Will wording says exactly?

"In his will he asked for this to be mortgaged to a total value of £1,200.


Borrowing £1,200 against the property would be a large liability back then.

The Mortgage taken out is a liability (until repaid) which makes it difficult in calculating his personal worth.

Mark


Offline Arvanitakis

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Re: Estimating the worth/income of an estate
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 14 April 19 09:33 BST (UK) »


Exact wording is:

"I give unto Walter Jones [no relation - he was a land agent] in the said county of Merioneth, Esquire, all that my Messuage or Tenement with the lands, Hereditaments and appurtenances thereunto belonging situate lying and being in the parish of Llandrillo in the said county and called or known by the name of Moelyskedwŷ [isa] and now in the tenure or occupation of John Roberts his undertenants or assigns To Hold the same unto the said Walter Jones his heirs and assigns for ever upon this special trust and confidence that he, the said Walter Jones, his heirs, executors or administrators shall and will, as soon as is convenient after my decease, by sale or mortgage of the said premises raise the sum of One Thousand – Two Hundred Pounds of lawful English money and therefrom in the first place pay off and discharge the mortgage or sum of Nine Hundred Pounds and the interest that may be due thereon at the time of my decease now affecting the same premises and also pay the further sum of One Hundred Pounds....[legacies continue]"

Then the probate at the end states: that his estate "at the Time of his death did not amount in value to one Hundred Pounds".

There are two questions here:

1) how his money/lands came to be lost. He was the last member of his family to be able to live as a 'gentleman' from his small lands. His son who inherited the properties had even more debts at his death 20 years later, and the lands disappear from the family altogether.

2) what sort of income he would have had with 200 acres of around 70% arable, 20% pasture and 10% meadow. I have found one article which estimates that land in Merionethshire was worth about £0.46 per acre per year in 1820. I know this was one of the poorest counties of North Wales.


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Estimating the worth/income of an estate
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 14 April 19 19:05 BST (UK) »
Then the probate at the end states: that his estate "at the Time of his death did not amount in value to one Hundred Pounds".

There are two questions here:

1) how his money/lands came to be lost. He was the last member of his family to be able to live as a 'gentleman' from his small lands. His son who inherited the properties had even more debts at his death 20 years later, and the lands disappear from the family altogether.

2) what sort of income he would have had with 200 acres of around 70% arable, 20% pasture and 10% meadow. I have found one article which estimates that land in Merionethshire was worth about £0.46 per acre per year in 1820. I know this was one of the poorest counties of North Wales.

Income derived purely from agriculture can't be guaranteed. It's dependant on so many factors, weather, disease, market prices, cost & availability of labour, servicing debt, government policy, war & peace, world conditions &c.
The article "Causes of Discontent and Distress" I mentioned in my reply #2 gives indications of some problems with which famers had to contend in early 19thC.
War with France began 1793 and lasted for more than 20 years. As in WW1 and WW2, Britain had to produce more food. More land was enclosed to enable famers to increase production. Price of grain rose. As well as food there was need for leather to make soldiers' boots and saddles for cavalry and  materials for their uniforms, e.g. linen (from flax), wool. Inflation was high during the war.
End of the war brought falls in grain prices. Then there was a series of bad harvests. Farmers had spent money extending their farms and improving land to meet demand. Some may have taken on debt.
It's possible that Mr Jones lost his entire 1816 harvest and his hay crop. Choice would have been between buying scarce hay at a high price to feed his animals through winter, selling more animals than usual in autumn at a lower price than in previous years because so many other farmers would have been selling too, or keeping them and risking their deterioration and perhaps death. His son would have inherited the same set of problems. Your ancestor would have been paying 5% interest on his debt.
Mr Jones would also have been contributing to the parish poor relief. Local recipients may have been swelled by some of the thousands of discharged soldiers unable to find work to support their families.
Introduction of the Corn Laws was intended to protect British corn production if price of corn fell below a set level.
There are books and articles about agriculture in this period. Try your public library if you live in Britain.
Another source is local newspapers if they existed at the time. Browsing adverts and articles may help fill in background. Also national newspapers for the situation generally. There may be agricultural journals from the period.
Have you found tithe records for the property?
Cowban

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Estimating the worth/income of an estate
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 16 April 19 10:28 BST (UK) »


Exact wording is:

"I give unto Walter Jones [no relation - he was a land agent] in the said county of Merioneth, Esquire, all that my Messuage or Tenement with the lands, Hereditaments and appurtenances thereunto belonging situate lying and being in the parish of Llandrillo in the said county and called or known by the name of Moelyskedwŷ [isa] and now in the tenure or occupation of John Roberts his undertenants or assigns To Hold the same unto the said Walter Jones his heirs and assigns for ever upon this special trust and confidence that he, the said Walter Jones, his heirs, executors or administrators shall and will, as soon as is convenient after my decease, by sale or mortgage of the said premises raise the sum of One Thousand – Two Hundred Pounds of lawful English money and therefrom in the first place pay off and discharge the mortgage or sum of Nine Hundred Pounds and the interest that may be due thereon at the time of my decease now affecting the same premises and also pay the further sum of One Hundred Pounds....[legacies continue]"

Then the probate at the end states: that his estate "at the Time of his death did not amount in value to one Hundred Pounds".

There are two questions here:

1) how his money/lands came to be lost. He was the last member of his family to be able to live as a 'gentleman' from his small lands. His son who inherited the properties had even more debts at his death 20 years later, and the lands disappear from the family altogether.

2) what sort of income he would have had with 200 acres of around 70% arable, 20% pasture and 10% meadow. I have found one article which estimates that land in Merionethshire was worth about £0.46 per acre per year in 1820. I know this was one of the poorest counties of North Wales.

Hello

It is not always what a person earns and/or the value of any assets, but how much that person spent/spends and their debts.

This was what I couldn't understand originally, why leave your Trustee (or a Beneficiary) to take out a large Mortgage of £1200, in 1817.

The Testator's Estate value of about £100 at Probate (was the Net value after debt and/or money owed is deducted). Any new Mortgage was to clear a previous Mortgage of £900 and possibly Estate debts, so it seems the Will writer's idea was to get deeper into debt with a larger Mortgage rather than sell up, although selling the Estate was left as an option too in the Will.

Mark

Offline Arvanitakis

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Re: Estimating the worth/income of an estate
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 20 April 19 00:07 BST (UK) »
Thank you all for your replies - this is very interesting!

Would £1200 have been the total worth of the estate then? - I am interested in trying to work out what the total effects/worth of this man would have been!

His ancestors had held land as minor gentry for generations and he was the last to do so - and took on a job as parish clerk too. His sons were set up in apprenticeships and so he was the last to live as a 'gentleman' really.

I suppose the Napoleonic wars, etc. and bad harvests may have affecting him - and also the fact that gavelkind was still practised so estates became smaller and smaller with each generation

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Estimating the worth/income of an estate
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 23 April 19 02:29 BST (UK) »
Hello.

Financially, he was worth up to about £100 at death.

He owed too much, there was a £900 Mortgage and Interest to repay.

Mark