Looking for a second opinion please

[Forfarian]

I am interested in the banns recorded on 2 March 1630 in the attached extract from the parish register of Monifieth.

I read it as follows .... Gilbert Ramsay Laird of Bomains and Girsell Durham in the paroch of Dundie was married be Mr Thomas Ramsay minister at ....

Can anyone else improve on that, and in particular suggest what the hieroglyphic immediately before Gilbert is, and where was Thomas Ramsay minister (I have hypotheses about both but would be interested to see what anyone else makes of it).

Thanks in anticipation.

[Karen McDonald]

Might it possibly be "Sir"?

Best regards,
Karen

[Old Bristolian]

Yes it's Sr, the r in superscript, standing for Sir.

[Forfarian]

Thank you both, that was my hypothesis. Glad to have it confirmed.

[goldie61]

I agrree it’s “Sir”.

Just to say you have written “Bomains’,  but it’s an ‘e’ at the end, and not an ‘s’, so “Bomaine”.

Also, it’s “war maried”. - not ‘was married’.

Can’t help much with the place name for Thomas.
The last word is “den”, but the line above it indicates it’s a contractions and therefore letters missing.
The first word of the place is “??rk” . By process of elimination, The capital letter isn’t a “C’ - compared to the C at the beginning of “Colectit”, nor is it an “S’ - compared to the S in ‘Sir”. Nor is it a “G’ as in “Gilbert”.
My first thought, as it was Scotland, was some form of “Kirk”, but that doesn’t seem like a capital ‘K’. Did they ever write Kirk beginning with  a “C”?

I wonder if Laird Gilbert Ramsay and Thomas Ramsay the minister were related?

[goldie61]

Found this about them:
When Montrose turned Royalist, Middleton's services
were not required, and he was left to pursue his own
course. His father infef ted him in the lands of Caldhame.
He married Grizel Durham, daughter of James Durham
of Pitkerrow. She had been twice married; first to
Alexander Fotheringham of Balliiidrone, and next, in 1630,
to Sir Gilbert Ramsav of Balmain. This second marriasre
was dissolv^ed, for Sir Gilbert had a second wife, a daughter
of Auchinleck of Ballandro. Middleton's family consisted
of a son, Charles, and two daughters, Grizel who married
William the tenth Earl of Morton, and Helen, who be-
came the wife of Patrick Lyon, the first Earl of Strath-
more. The portraits of this couple are to be seen in
Glamis Castle. On tlie front door lintel of the oldest part
of Fettercairu House are the initials of John Middleton
and Grizel Durham, ^ with 1666 the date of its erection.
The countess died in September of the same year, and
according to a tradition current forty years ago, she wa&
atiiicted with blindness ; and for the schoolmaster's reading
the Bible to her on her deathbed, she bequeathed to him
and his successors half an acre of land and a garden, be-
low the village, equal in extent to an old measure called a
''boll o' bear."

From https://archive.org/stream/historyoffetterc00came/historyoffetterc00

[Forfarian]

Thank you, and yes, I have that information.

No, kirk is never written with a C as far as I know.

There was a Rev Thomas Ramsay in the parish of Kirkden, but his successor, one Patrick Durham*, was ordained in 1623, so it seems a bit odd, and I hoped that a fresh eye that did not know any of the background would be able to read it and confirm what I thought.   

*I have no idea whether he was related to Grizel Durham. Or whether Rev Thomas Ramsay was related to Sir Gilbert Ramsay.

My ultimate objective is to find actual evidence for various statements, for example the assertion in the item quoted that the marriage was 'dissolved'. Dissolution of a marriage was such an exceptional event in the 17th century - even in the 19th century it required an Act of Parliament -  that it must have required action at the highest level, but so far I have found no definite evidence for this particular marriage having been dissolved.

Some 'sources' say that Elizabeth Auchinleck was Gilbert Ramsay's first wife; some say that Grizel Durham was only married twice; some say that Gilbert Ramsay had a son by Grizel Durham; and others do not mention any family. With so many contradictions, I cannot trust any of the readily available secondary 'sources' and need to go back to seek primary sources - such as the will# of Grizel's first husband, who died in 1624, and this record of her marriage to Gilbert Ramsay in 1630.

#I have a copy of it, and I can read about one word in ten, but I can read the signature of Grizel Durham in it so I am pretty sure it's the right one!

[goldie61]

Fascinating stuff!
Pretty difficult to find exact information in the early 1600s I'd think. I lose a lot of people around then - 'Lost into the mists of time'.

It does seem suspiciously like 'Kirk Den' though.

[horselydown86]

I recall that we have seen the letter K formed like this in some of the Scottish texts on this board.

I will see if I can find the example when I have more time.