Author Topic: Saunders - very confused - Help Needed.  (Read 736 times)

Offline jomcd967

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Saunders - very confused - Help Needed.
« on: Tuesday 23 April 19 07:01 BST (UK) »
Ok, I'm sure someone here can make sense of this for me.....?

William Saunders born 1877 Bedwelty
1881 (RG11/5244/13/23) with parents in Bedwelty .....all good
1891 (RG12/4357/3/8) still with parents in Bedwelty......still all good
1901 (RG13/4938/14/20) as a 23 year old widower and boarder.....

1911 at 19 Brynhyfrd Street Blackwood Mon
William is 33, a coal hewer (as in above census records) living with wife Annie, 34, son Robert James (Saunders appears to be written in as surname later) 15, daughters Mary Jane 8 & Idris 4.
Next is British Army WWI Pension Records showing a William Saunders, 34 of 24 Brynhyfrd Street attesting as a member of the Royal Engineers, he is now a carpenter, his wife is Martha White and they married in 1902 in Tredegar, with children Mary Jane born Feb 1904 Tredegar (matches 1911) and Idris born 9 Mar 1906 in Ynisddu (again matches 1911).

1939 - 24 Brynhyfrd Street Blackwood
William & Annie Saunders
at same address is Mary Jane, her husband and Robert W J James???

So there is a marriage in 1899 for a William Saunders & Martha White and a matching death for Martha in 1900 - this would match him being a widower in 1901.

No marriage found to Annie but Mary Jane and Edrys show MMN as Waters?

Edrys - Idris is a son born 18 Nov 1906 (not 9 March) this date is shown on school records nad 1939 register - why would Idris/Edrys be a daughter in 1911?

Who is Robert James (Saunders) - no other record found beyond the 1911 & 1939 records????

Who is Annie Waters? Did they never marry? Can someone be so wrong at the time of attesting that they would forget which wife they married and when? Who are the three living children listed in 1911 - Robert is not on the pension records but is still alive in 1939????

Any suggestions and ideas, thoughts and theories are greatly appreciated.

Cheers, Jo  :)


Puplett, Sonnex, Lott, Dunkiss, Hart - London area.
Hudson, Jenner, Dedman - Sussex
Leach, Hopkins, Saunders - Wales
Leach, Lipscombe - Hampshire
Sipthorpe - Lancashire
Walters - Cornawall & Australia
Kingshott, Matheson, Pitt, McDonald, Keogh - Australia.

Offline Jomot

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Re: Saunders - very confused - Help Needed.
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 23 April 19 17:02 BST (UK) »
Looking at the 1911 it appears that William initially began to write a different name beginning with 'Do' and then changed it to Idris.

There is this birth, plus a death registered the following year:
SAUNDERS, DORIS  mmn WATERS  GRO Reference: 1904  J Quarter in BEDWELLTY  Volume 11A  Page 126

Idris was initially listed as aged 4 in the Males column, but someone then changed it to the female column. 

I think there's just been some confusion over how to complete the form - he certainly wouldnt have been alone in that, based on some of the entries I've seen.
MORGAN: Glamorgan, Durham, Ohio. DAVIS/DAVIES/DAVID: Glamorgan, Ohio.  GIBSON: Leicestershire, Durham. North Yorkshire.  JACKSON: East Yorks, North Yorks, Durham. TAYLOR: North Yorks. BOURDAS: North Yorks. JEFFREYS: Worcestershire & Northumberland. CHEESMOND: Durham/Northumberland. WINTER: Durham/Northumberland. SNOWBALL: Durham.

Offline jomcd967

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Re: Saunders - very confused - Help Needed.
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 24 April 19 12:44 BST (UK) »
Thanks Jomot,

I had missed the registration for Doris, that is a good find.

Iím still confused to who is Williams wife Annie? Is she Annie Waters and they never married?

Weird too that at the bottom of the 1911 he states that there are 2 males and three females in the house, surely it would be easy to get that bit right???

And who is Robert? He was born in 1896, well prior to Williams marriage to Martha White, I think he is down as Robert James on the 1911 and Saunders has been added. This would match the Robert W. J. James living with Mary Jane and family in 1939.

I cannot find him in 1901? There is a birth registered in Newport in 1896 for a Robert William John James, but the MMN is Davies?

Any suggestions on who Robert is and where I can find out more about him?

All suggestions gratefully received  :).

Cheers, Jo
Puplett, Sonnex, Lott, Dunkiss, Hart - London area.
Hudson, Jenner, Dedman - Sussex
Leach, Hopkins, Saunders - Wales
Leach, Lipscombe - Hampshire
Sipthorpe - Lancashire
Walters - Cornawall & Australia
Kingshott, Matheson, Pitt, McDonald, Keogh - Australia.


Offline Jomot

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Re: Saunders - very confused - Help Needed.
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 24 April 19 15:33 BST (UK) »
I think to move forward you probably need to buy one of the Saunders/Waters birth certificates to see what it says about Annie.  Although the indexes give her maiden name as Waters she may have been married previously so it's possible there may be additional surnames on the certificate.

You should also consider buying the certificate for Robert William John James to see who is named as his parents.
MORGAN: Glamorgan, Durham, Ohio. DAVIS/DAVIES/DAVID: Glamorgan, Ohio.  GIBSON: Leicestershire, Durham. North Yorkshire.  JACKSON: East Yorks, North Yorks, Durham. TAYLOR: North Yorks. BOURDAS: North Yorks. JEFFREYS: Worcestershire & Northumberland. CHEESMOND: Durham/Northumberland. WINTER: Durham/Northumberland. SNOWBALL: Durham.

Offline RayDen

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Re: Saunders - very confused - Help Needed.
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 28 April 19 16:22 BST (UK) »
On the 1911 census Annie is shown as having had 5 children.  There was Mary Jane and Idris and also possibly Doris.  I have also found a Annie Saunders with mother Waters born 1909 Newport, died 1910 Newport. That would make 4 children.  Therefore would Robert be the 5th child.  Its seems to me that the transcription Robert James is his full name.  And whether I am just imagining things but it does look like that in the relations column the word SON has been written over something that has been rubbed out?

Perhaps William had not in fact married Annie and that is why he still named Martha has next of kin?

There is always the assumption that our ancestors were knowledge, articulate, etc. but I have found a number of my ancestors who were not the sharpest knives in the box!!!
 
Denham [Hertford & London], Carter [Somerset], Francis, Badger [Pembroke, Glamorgan]

Offline jomcd967

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Re: Saunders - very confused - Help Needed.
« Reply #5 on: Friday 03 May 19 07:46 BST (UK) »
Hi RayDen,

Sorry for the delay in answering, a bout of gastro in the household  :-X.

I agree that Robert is just Robert James (this matches the Robert W J James living with sister Mary Jane in 1939. I also agree that it looks as if Annie & William never married, and that son has been written over (what I think looks like daughter) in the 1911 for Robert.

I also saw the birth registered for Annie in Newport, but there were about 4 other possible births registered in both Newport & Pontypool for Saunders/Waters?

I donít know if Robert is Annieís son as, if he is Robert William John James registered in Newport in 1896 then his MMN is Davies, not Waters like Mary Jane & Edrys. It is also unlikely that he is the son of Williams previous wife Martha White, unless she was actually a Martha Davies married to an unknown White, and then married William in 1899 and died in 1900.....but where is Robert in 1901?

I know the easiest option is to just buy the relevant certificates, but this lot are not in my direct line and I have already overspent on various other options around them.

But I really appreciate your taking the time and effort to look for me and value all input and suggestions given.

Kind regards, Jo  :)
Puplett, Sonnex, Lott, Dunkiss, Hart - London area.
Hudson, Jenner, Dedman - Sussex
Leach, Hopkins, Saunders - Wales
Leach, Lipscombe - Hampshire
Sipthorpe - Lancashire
Walters - Cornawall & Australia
Kingshott, Matheson, Pitt, McDonald, Keogh - Australia.