Author Topic: Old Will  (Read 356 times)

Offline ele002

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Old Will
« on: Thursday 25 April 19 10:40 BST (UK) »
In a will written in 1771, there is a reference to some land which he holds by lease for ' Three Lives'.
I assume that 'Three Lives' was a fixed period of time. Does anyone know how long it was?

Thanks, Eric.
Jones:Middleton, Howarth:Manchester, Dean:Ardwick/Manchester, Harvey:Nth Manchester & Elland/West Yorks,  Tattersall:Manchester/Salford/Burnley,   
 Lees:Prestwich/Manchester, Wild : Manchester/Salford,
Davies/Williams :Ruabon/Wrexham

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Offline emeltom

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Re: Old Will
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 25 April 19 10:43 BST (UK) »
Could it be three generations of the family eg he holds the lease, on his death it will pass to his son and then, in turn to his grandson and on his death the Lease is revoked. Just a thought.

Emeltom
Smith Tiplady Boulton Branthwaite King Miller Woolfall Bretherton Archer and many more

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Offline ele002

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Re: Old Will
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 25 April 19 10:51 BST (UK) »
Thanks. I can see where you're coming from, but as I read it, he leaves it for the remaining time of the lease, after his death, so I guess not. But, I'm no expert.

Eric
Jones:Middleton, Howarth:Manchester, Dean:Ardwick/Manchester, Harvey:Nth Manchester & Elland/West Yorks,  Tattersall:Manchester/Salford/Burnley,   
 Lees:Prestwich/Manchester, Wild : Manchester/Salford,
Davies/Williams :Ruabon/Wrexham

Online mazi

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Re: Old Will
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 25 April 19 12:28 BST (UK) »
Could it be three generations of the family eg he holds the lease, on his death it will pass to his son and then, in turn to his grandson and on his death the Lease is revoked. Just a thought.

Emeltom

This sums it up, the lease is for three lives.

This may help

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01npe/

Mike

Offline goldie61

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Re: Old Will
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 25 April 19 22:02 BST (UK) »
I have quite a few ancestors who did this, and would just say that's it's not always members of the family that  the '3 lives' are for. And certainly not always direct family members such as 'son' and 'daughter', or even 'son' and 'grandson'.

I haven't seen it as a 'fixed period of time' as you say in your first post, and the length of the lease depended on the length of the lives of the other people stipulated when the lease was agreed.
Leases could be re-negotiated from time to time, and the names of the people in the 3 lives changed, so the same piece of ground could stay within the same family sometimes for many generations, or passed on to a different family.

You don't say where in Lancashire this was, but if you can find who the land was leased from, you might be able to find the actual lease of your ancestor in the landlord's records.
I know the Earls of Derbys, whose 'seat' was at Knowsley Hall, near Liverpool, Lancs, owned a great deal of land in the North West, and their 'Rent Registers' are at Preston Record Office.
 
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Old Will
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 25 April 19 23:58 BST (UK) »
In a will written in 1771, there is a reference to some land which he holds by lease for ' Three Lives'.
I assume that 'Three Lives' was a fixed period of time. Does anyone know how long it was?

"On entering into a contract the tenant would nominate up to 3 individuals who were to be the 'lives' on the lease. The tenement was then leased to the tenant for a term of years, usually 99, which was determinable on the lives of these individuals."
 ('The operation of life leasehold in South-west Lancashire, 1649-97' by A.J. Gritt)
www.bahs.org.uk/AGHR/ARTICLES/53n1a1.pdf
Entry fines were payable at the start of the lease term, when the lease was renewed, or when lives were added or changed.
'This article explores the extent to which the social and economic contract framed by the life leasehold system helped to promote social stability and economic recovery.' (Part of abstract of article.)  It has several charts showing relationships of 1st, 2nd and 3rd lives. There is information about lengths of leases.  Estates owned by Molyneux and Blundell are among those examined. Individual examples cited include a lease which lasted 72 years and an old man returning to a manor, claiming to be the same person as the baby named on his father's lease 74 years earlier.
Sources cited in the article are in Lancashire Archives.
See also 'Lancashire Archives - A Guide to Manorial Records' by Sara Rose & others.

I always understood the 99 years term to be based on a generation being around 30 years. 99 years/3 lives leases were still around in Lancashire in 20th century for some farms, although the way they operated was different.

A 6xGGM, a married woman, was 3rd life on a lease in 1720s, after a 4yr-old boy who may have been her nephew and a young woman who may have been her sister or sister-in-law. They had a locally common surname and very common Christian names so it's hard to say who was who. Burial register showed several deaths of people with the surname in their part of the parish over a few years.
In the same parish as that 6xGGM, a 5xGGF seemed to be farming land in the same place in 1790 as his ancestors occupied in 1640 and 1580, although I have no definite proof that 1790 John was a direct ancestor of 1640 John and 1580 John.   

Offline ele002

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Re: Old Will
« Reply #6 on: Friday 26 April 19 11:10 BST (UK) »
Thank you all. So much clearer now!! I've got a general idea.

I think the answer may well lie in the original lease which was 'under the late Sir Ralph Asheton of Middleton'. The land was in the Stakehill area of Middleton.

I'm not sure how far I want to delve into it. I was more curious than anything else, but next time I visit Preston, I may see if they have anything to hand.

Many thanks, Eric.
Jones:Middleton, Howarth:Manchester, Dean:Ardwick/Manchester, Harvey:Nth Manchester & Elland/West Yorks,  Tattersall:Manchester/Salford/Burnley,   
 Lees:Prestwich/Manchester, Wild : Manchester/Salford,
Davies/Williams :Ruabon/Wrexham

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Old Will
« Reply #7 on: Friday 26 April 19 20:47 BST (UK) »
Re reply #6. You can delve into LANCAT, online catalogue of Lancashire Archives. Read the guide to manorial records which I mentioned in reply #5, available online.

Offline Letsy

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Re: Old Will
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 11 May 19 16:05 BST (UK) »
Leases for three lives were very common and since the lives are named and sometimes ages and relationships given they can be extremely useful. I have certainly found this to be the case with my Fylde ancestors who were tenants of the Clifton of Lytham family. I would also recommend searching Discovery, The National Archives site, which enables you to search not only the TNA catalogue but also local archive catalogues.