St Aubyn Burke family from Cork, Ireland

[wivenhoe]

You really need to see the printout of the death record.

[battista]

"The marriage certificate has St Thomas Church Vestry.  They are not married before the church altar. That would mean that one of the couple is not Catholic, and the priest would be ensure that it was recorded as such."

Hmm, interesting, I'd imagine Henry Murray wasn't Catholic, considering he's from an English family.

"I think that they have given Christchurch as "usual residence" because that is their intended residence. Eileen has not been in NZ before her marriage."

Christchurch as usual residence because that's where she intended to live certainly does make sense.

"Henry would be named for his father, and St Aubyn for mother's family"

Yep, makes sense.

"Stella would be named for maternal grandmother, paternal grandmother and mother"

John Murray, Frances Wilmot Coffin, John St Aubyn Burke, Stella Chester are all of Stella F E Murray's grandparents.

Bernard Percival Murray is my father; I do not know where his name comes from. I knew about my aunt and uncle. I will ask around the family.

Henry St. Aubyn Murray had a son, Anthony St Aubyn Murray. The St Aubyn name was not passed down to Anthony's children (probably lost all meaning by that point).

I will get a printout of the death record. Are there any other printouts in NZ that might be useful in finding further information about Eileen?

Thanks for all the help @wivenhoe

[battista]

@majm Thanks for all the help and info!

Registration Number: 1854/4580
Family Name: Murray
Given name(s): Henry
Mother's given name(s): Francis Wilmot
Father's given name(s): John

Just took a look at those examples you gave, thank you very much. Incredibly useful. It seems that the NSW marriage cert I got had most of that information in there, apart from birthplace. Would the purpose of getting the original church record be to see the birthplace section?

[majm]

Exactly.   Somewhere on RChat there's a recent thread discussing RC marriages,  and regardless of where in the world,  the clergy would refer back to baptism parish register to check the details .... and  the details to be recorded on that baptism's parish records include their marriage ....

So hopefully the NSW parish register has the actual place ,  not just Ireland

JM

[battista]

Exactly.   Somewhere on RChat there's a recent thread discussing RC marriages,  and regardless of where in the world,  the clergy would refer back to baptism parish register to check the details .... and  the details to be recorded on that baptism's parish records include their marriage ....

So hopefully the NSW parish register has the actual place ,  not just Ireland

JM

Ooh, interesting. I'll search for that thread. I wonder how that used to work, seems like it could get a bit expensive to copy and send parish records all over the world. I suppose that's discussed in that thread.

[majm]

I wonder    ....  1858 v 1851 ...

I wonder if 1858 would be possible year of migration with the military etc  ... and thus a reissued set  of church records were organised by Eileen's dad at that time,  thus when she married,  the clergy took the year of issue to be the  year of the actual event .... speculations of course do not solve the dilemma ....  and of course 19th century seamail to and from NSW / Ireland . Say six weeks each way,  one week there ... thats three months ..... could cause embarrassing delays to 'hasty' marriages ....

JM

[battista]

I wonder    ....  1858 v 1851 ...

I wonder if 1858 would be possible year of migration with the military etc  ... and thus a reissued set  of church records were organised by Eileen's dad at that time,  thus when she married,  the clergy took the year of issue to be the  year of the actual event .... speculations of course do not solve the dilemma ....  and of course 19th century seamail to and from NSW / Ireland . Say six weeks each way,  one week there ... thats three months ..... could cause embarrassing delays to 'hasty' marriages ....

JM

Hmm yes. I suspect the informant was one of her children, as her husband had already passed away at this point. So that could also be the source of the discrepancy. Would certainly be interesting if that 1851/1858 theory was correct.

St Thomas has responded to my email. They've said the records are in the Archdiocesan archives and they will contact them for me. They've also asked for why I want the information, in case there's another/additional ways to get it. I'll be responding to them now

[majm]

That's good news 

Here's that post on that thread I mentioned earlier ....

Thank you - I *think* this couple may have emigrated to Canada so this info is great to have. I wonder why/how the footnote appeared on a baptism record at St Alphonsus for a marriage at St Johns??! 

M

Its quite usual for the RC church where you are to be married to contact the church where you 'say' you were baptised to check the baptism register. In the RC church marriage is a sacrament and they are/were particular in ensuring that you had been baptised (as a pre qualification to celebrating a later sacrament). So John's would have checked with St Alphonsus, as JenB says the actual marriage record will be at St John's but, having been asked, the priest at St Alphonsus made a note in his baptism register.
I have one where a  church in Ontario checked with a Liverpool church and it was noted on the baptism register in Liverpool - distance was no hindrance to them checking !

Though its done for religious purposes its 'very' useful for family history researchers all these years later:-)

Boo

[Maiden Stone]

Exactly.   Somewhere on RChat there's a recent thread discussing RC marriages,  and regardless of where in the world,  the clergy would refer back to baptism parish register to check the details .... and  the details to be recorded on that baptism's parish records include their marriage ....

So hopefully the NSW parish register has the actual place ,  not just Ireland

JM

Ooh, interesting. I'll search for that thread. I wonder how that used to work, seems like it could get a bit expensive to copy and send parish records all over the world. I suppose that's discussed in that thread.

It wasn't standard practice until 20th century. 'Ne Temere' papal decree on marriage 1908 required the marriage celebrant to enter details of the marriage in the baptism register of the bride or to inform her parish of origin if she was baptised elsewhere. Some priests also recorded marriage information in bridegroom's baptism register, some didn't. E.g. Information about my parents' marriage was added to my mother's baptism entry, information about my grandparents' marriage was not added to my grandfather's baptism entry; my mother and grandfather were baptised in the same church and both marriages were after publication of 'Ne Temere'.
Priests would want to know if the couple were Catholics as Catholic marriage is one of the Seven Sacraments. The Catholic Church had rules, canon law on marriage but they were adapted to local situations until 'Ne Temere' promulgated them worldwide.  I don't know how much a priest's enquiries would be limited by geography or whether he erred on the side of believing what the couple told him in those days. Bear in mind as well, that record-keeping in Irish Catholic parishes around time of Miss Burke's birth was not good. (I know the parishes where 2 of my Irish families were baptised around that time. One has legible, reasonably neat registers and I found baptisms of all 6 children. The other is a mess - I could find only 1 of 5 (or possibly more) baptisms - entire pages are illegible and runs of years are missing.)
Marriage registers late 19thC-1918 for  R.C. church in Bacup, Lancashire has recently been put on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks site. Priests at the church were not consistent about marriage information recorded. One included mothers of bride and groom and their maiden names for marriages 1912 onwards.  His successor in 1914 noted baptisms or dates of birth of each spouse. A note to a marriage in 1915 says that no record of baptisms for these people could be found.
One of the reasons for 'Ne Temere' papal decree was to prevent invalid and possibly bigamous marriages by people marrying far away from where they were born. Additional guidance notes discussed whether the telegraph system should be used for communicating between parishes.